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Thread: Welsh Y-Chromosome Haplogroups

  1. #1
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    Welsh Y-Chromosome Haplogroups

    I have good reason to believe my y-chromosome line is Welsh, from the Borders/West Midlands area, i.e., the old Welsh kingdom of Powys, and the tribal lands of the Cornovii or maybe the Ordovices or the Dobunni. My terminal SNP is FGC36981, but I think it arose in North America, maybe with my second great grandfather. The broader haplogroup is characterized by the SNP BY166 (Z18021 at 23andMe) which is found among the following surnames:

    Beddoes
    Cates
    Chorn
    Cooper
    Dugger
    Jackson
    Jones
    Kendle
    Lloyd
    Mayson
    Phillips
    Price
    Pryce
    Randall
    Samuel
    Self
    Stephens
    Stevens
    Trout
    Webb
    Williams

    The surnames listed above that don't appear to be Welsh are borne by men who don't match others with their surname but do closely match other men with Welsh surnames on that list. Due to privacy concerns I cannot reveal anything more specific.

    The phylogenetic pedigree is R-M207, R1-M173, R1b-M343, L754, L389, P297, M269, L23, L51, P310, L151, P312, Z290, L21, DF13, Z39589, DF41, FGC5572, BY168, BY166 (and FGC36974, FGC36982, FGC36981 for me and my closest kin).

    That's strictly from memory, so if I left anything out, let me know.

    What other y-chromosome haplogroups do you believe are strictly or mostly Welsh? Be as specific and detailed as possible.

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    Guess no one is interested in Welsh y-dna haplogroups.

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    I am, just don't know of any specifically Welsh haplogroups. I hope others contribute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post
    I am, just don't know of any specifically Welsh haplogroups. I hope others contribute.
    Same. I wouldn't be surprised if Welsh haplogroups were shared throughout the periphery of the Irish Sea region.
    Last edited by spruithean; 10-12-2019 at 10:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post
    I am, just don't know of any specifically Welsh haplogroups. I hope others contribute.
    Probably it's going to take going pretty far out on the branches, perhaps to the twigs to get the kind of geographic resolution needed. Obviously NGS testing with Family Tree DNA's Big Y-500 or Big Y-700 or the equivalent is required.

    However, I do think R1b-L371 is almost exclusively Welsh, and I believe its discovery predates the advent of Big Y testing.

    My own subclade, R1b-BY166 (R-Z18021 at 23andMe), is almost exclusively Welsh (judging by surnames and by our members who can get their pedigrees across the Pond), with one exception thus far: a man with a Welsh surname whose mdka was born in Wiltshire in SW England not all that far from Wales.

    We appear to be a Borders group, so it wouldn't surprise me to see more mdkas born in what is now England, but in that part of England that was once part of the old Welsh kingdom of Powys. For example, I have among my closest matches at 67 markers a couple of men with the Welsh surname Beddoes. However, that Beddoes family is spread into Shropshire within a few miles of the Welsh border. (Thus far, I can't convince any of the Beddoes to join our project. The admin of the Beddows/Beddoes Project has inculcated in them the fear of sharing their information and consequently an absolutely stupid mania for privacy that defeats most of the purpose of y-dna testing.)

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    I suspect my BY3290 might be Welsh. My often changing estimate is that it was formed between 300 and 900 Common Era. So far we have 7 Davis, 1 Thomas, 1 Bailey, 1 Griffiths, 3 Wynne, 1 Beddies, 1 Powell, 1 Rice, 1 Parker, 1 Young, 1 Kelsall, 1 Parker, 1 Lentle that I know of. Most trace their known ancestry back to either Wales, West England [Westerness] or South West England. There is at least one ringer in the mix whose know ancestry from Switzerland.

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    I believe S27900, which is part of the P312 subclade ZZ37/38, is primarily Welsh.

    Since surnames were adopted relatively late in Wales, I have noticed most of the Welsh have STR matches with a variety of Welsh surnames.

    EDIT: I corrected the SNP to S27900. The sequence is P312>ZZ37>ZZ38>Z29645>S27900. The list of those who have tested positive for this marker can be seen in section F2b of the P312 Project YDNA results. This appears to be a large group, as most of them have a large number of 67 marker matches, and they are predominantly Welsh surnames.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 10-14-2019 at 06:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    . . .

    Since surnames were adopted relatively late in Wales, I have noticed most of the Welsh have STR matches with a variety of Welsh surnames . . .
    That's right. My own subclade is pretty tight knit in terms of STRs. The Welsh patronymic naming system accounts for that.

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    One of my Vance surname project subgroups all descend from an earliest known ancestor in the early 1700s who came to the US from Ireland.

    However their Y-DNA connects probably just a few generations before that to the Bassetts of Wales, who are descended from Normans into Wales in the 11th century. While I’m sure the Y-DNA isn’t proven back to the Normans, this same line appears to be the predominant Welsh Y-DNA line for the Bassett surname at least for those who have tested so far.

    This line is I-M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>S2525>L38>S2606>S24121 .

    So the operating theory at the moment is that this Vance subgroup represents a NPE off the Welsh Bassett line.

    One of the interesting things about this line is an apparent consistent innate resistance to Y-DNA STR mutations. Between the Vances and Bassetts they’re all no more than a genetic distance of 3 going back to common ancestors who have to be at the latest in the 1600s.

    However there hasn’t been much SNP testing among either the Bassetts or Vances in these groups. We only know them down to S24121, though that will change eventually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    That's right. My own subclade is pretty tight knit in terms of STRs. The Welsh patronymic naming system accounts for that.
    Exactly. The S27900 group has a very strong STR signature.

    For anyone interested in Welsh surnames, I highly recommend The Surnames of Wales by John and Sheila Rowlands (1996). It is essentially an encyclopedia of the origin and distribution of surnames in Wales.

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