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Thread: Verifying Two Branches Descend From Same Ancestor (18th Cent)

  1. #1
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    Verifying Two Branches Descend From Same Ancestor (18th Cent)

    Hi guys, Im new to this forum,

    I wanted to ask if there is anyway to confirm Patrilineal descent between 10th Cousins. I belong to Junior branch of a family of some historical importance (nobility). I was looking to confirm our descent through a genetic test with the main branch. The thing is though that we branched off from the main branch around mid 18th Century. And there are now 10 generations including me, after this common ancestor. I've done a geographic 2.0 test out of general curiosity and am currently in the process of transferring it to ftdna. But I've been told that it only shows ancestors 5 generations back so I'm not entirely sure how or which test I can use to verify our lineage.

    For more clarity my family tree is something like this (excluding names for confidentiality):
    1) Common Ancestor (Should be the MRCA with the 10th cousin if the family history is correct)
    2) Male
    3) Male
    4) Male
    5) Male
    6) Male
    7) Male
    8) Male
    9) Male
    10) Male
    11) Me (Male)

    My 10th Cousin is at the same level as me, and also a male line descendant. At most I could get an Uncle to test himself in order to reduce the generational gap, but that's still a test between 9th Cousins once removed. I have a Haplogroup from my Geno 2.0 test but perhaps thats too vague to narrow it down. I know a number of other noble families that also have the same haplogroup.

    I would really appreciate any help.
    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by royaljoker View Post
    Hi guys, Im new to this forum,

    I wanted to ask if there is anyway to confirm Patrilineal descent between 10th Cousins. I belong to Junior branch of a family of some historical importance (nobility). I was looking to confirm our descent through a genetic test with the main branch. The thing is though that we branched off from the main branch around mid 18th Century. And there are now 10 generations including me, after this common ancestor. I've done a geographic 2.0 test out of general curiosity and am currently in the process of transferring it to ftdna. But I've been told that it only shows ancestors 5 generations back so I'm not entirely sure how or which test I can use to verify our lineage.

    For more clarity my family tree is something like this (excluding names for confidentiality):
    1) Common Ancestor (Should be the MRCA with the 10th cousin if the family history is correct)
    2) Male
    3) Male
    4) Male
    5) Male
    6) Male
    7) Male
    8) Male
    9) Male
    10) Male
    11) Me (Male)

    My 10th Cousin is at the same level as me, and also a male line descendant. At most I could get an Uncle to test himself in order to reduce the generational gap, but that's still a test between 9th Cousins once removed. I have a Haplogroup from my Geno 2.0 test but perhaps thats too vague to narrow it down. I know a number of other noble families that also have the same haplogroup.

    I would really appreciate any help.
    Thanks
    I would appreciate if anyone could recommend any test. Especially if anyone knows if a standard consumer test like Myheritage or ancestry, If done by both me and my cousin, would allow us to verify our descent from the same person.

    Thanks

  3. #3
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    If both you and your far cousin are from the same paternal line, the best thing would be take a Y-chromosome test; you can opt for such a test at Family Tree DNA or Yseq.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by royaljoker View Post
    I would appreciate if anyone could recommend any test. Especially if anyone knows if a standard consumer test like Myheritage or ancestry, If done by both me and my cousin, would allow us to verify our descent from the same person.

    Thanks
    If the paternal line is involved, you need a YDNA test.
    By the way, I tested a distant paternal cousin, with genealogical common ancestor born in 1606 (exactly 11 levels in both lines, like in your case).

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by asquecco View Post
    If the paternal line is involved, you need a YDNA test.
    By the way, I tested a distant paternal cousin, with genealogical common ancestor born in 1606 (exactly 11 levels in both lines, like in your case).
    Which test did you use ? Me and this cousin should share a common Y-DNA . This common ancestor was a guy who was born at the start of the 18th Century and died mid 18th Century. We then descend from different sons.

    Anyway how many SNP markers do you guys think I should check. And do you guys know how accurate it would be. My results with ftdna are pending transfer, but once they're complete do you guys think that ftdna family finder and its features like "Chromosomal Browser" and "Advanced Matches" would be at all useful?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by royaljoker View Post
    Which test did you use ? Me and this cousin should share a common Y-DNA . This common ancestor was a guy who was born at the start of the 18th Century and died mid 18th Century. We then descend from different sons.

    Anyway how many SNP markers do you guys think I should check. And do you guys know how accurate it would be. My results with ftdna are pending transfer, but once they're complete do you guys think that ftdna family finder and its features like "Chromosomal Browser" and "Advanced Matches" would be at all useful?
    In my case, just a simple YDNA STR 37 test was enough to confirm our genealogical paternal connection.
    Family Finder will not give you any final answer on the paternal connection.

  7. #7
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    If you aren't interested in Y-DNA for any other reason, I'd start with Y-37. If you have a match, you can then test deeper to try to confirm how close/identify subclades. You can also see who the other matches are and explore from there.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to msmarjoribanks For This Useful Post:

     Saetro (10-14-2019)

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    Thanks guys for all your help. I recently did a Y-37 test. I'm still waiting on my cousin to do it but i've got my results in the meantime. I wanted to ask a couple of things. There are two guys who's results I can also see on a FTDNA research page and who I've been matched with at the 12 STR level. Basically the genetic distances that I've worked out manually, would for the other level would be:
    Person A:
    12 STR:0
    25 STR:-5
    37 STR:-6

    Person B:
    12 STR: 0
    25 STR:-5
    37 STR:-5

    Is it likely at all that I'm related to these two guys ? (they seem to have a lot more in common with each other though)

    Also while going through FTDNA pages I cam a cross a guy who seemed to be quite close to me however he didn't come up as a match. He scored the following:

    Person C:
    12 STR: -4
    25 STR: -3
    37 STR: -5

    For the other levels of testing he seems to match me much better. Is there any possibility that he could be related to me and do you guys think I should do further testing like 67 or 111 to find out. Of course all the above guys belong to the same branch of the Haplogroup as me.

  10. #9
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    If you upgrade one of the Y37 to Y67, you could run your YSTRs through the YSNP Predictor NEVGEN. Around 10 to 15 % of the time, Y37 may work. Around 5 % of the time you may have to upgrade to Y111 if there is significant convergence with other haplogroups. It would also help if you post three things about your test results:

    1) Surname of your oldest proven ancestor with place and date
    2) The FTDNA ID
    3) Some project that you have joined (this assumes that your data is public and the project has public YSTR reports).

    Generic advice is not always the best compared to having more information that you could provide which would enhance the possible advice.

    Also, YDNA is your only solution as atDNA tests at ten generations would be an extremely long shot in dark to give you any information.

    I no longer recommend Y37 as the first test for the following reasons:

    1) False hits go down from 40 to 60 % to 10 to 30 % with Y67 (the FTDNA match lists are almost always too optimistic).
    2) With Y67, you can almost always get reliable YSNP prediction around 50 % of the time (there are just too many
    haplogroups to analyze and some are so small that prediction would be problematic). This prediction is for haplogroup
    R, the rarer the haplogroup, the less likely that it has been analyzed for YSNP prediction.
    3) Eventually, somebody that belongs to your haplogroup may create a chart via SAPP or manually. Y67 is required for
    charting as Y37 is extremely low accuracy for charting. Here is an example of a chart for R-L226:

    http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Hap...me.pdf#Page=26
    Last edited by RobertCasey; 11-23-2019 at 02:50 AM.

  11. #10
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    Well, honestly I was hoping to keep things private. But I'm gonna need advice so here it goes.

    I'm a minor Indian prince of a north Indian muslim dynasty. Nawab Ali Muhammad Khan of Rohilkhand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Mohammed_Khan) is my earliest confirmed ancestor.

    The thing is though, that he is supposed to have been adopted by his afghan chief foster father. This fact wasn't known by my family, and so my branch which branched of quite early and became quite isolated and had forgotten much of our history other then the royal lineage had always believed until recently that we were Pathan (Pashtun). Very early records do indicate that he was adopted but there have been various claims including that he was Ahir, Jatt or etc.To be honest the Ahir and Jatt theories have mostly been espoused by enemies of the dynasty. Around the end of the 18th century the main branch of the dynasty started claiming Alid Quraishi lineage, saying that he was adopted from a Quraishi family. Which wasn't known to us until recently. Why or how they came to that conclusion I honestly don't know and maybe it was valid.

    Now I've done the Y-37 test. I'm R-L657, the same as the royal family of Arcot (also Quraishi but of a non-Alid line). In my matches at the 12 STR level I haven't matched with any Ahir or etc, I mostly seem to be matched with Quraishi Arabs . Members of the R1a Arabia. I haven't been matched with anyone at the 25 STR and 37 STR levels.

    However manually combing through the R1a research page I've found another person separate form persons A,B and C, a Bahraini Quraishi. and the distances between me and him would be:
    12 STR: 0
    25 STR:-5
    37 STR:-4

    Would it be likely that this guy is related to me.? And hence would it confirm that at least in the last 600 years or so that we do indeed descend from a dynasty that 600 years ago claimed Quraishi lineage.
    I'm hesitant to post my STRs and would rather keep them private.
    Thanks

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