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Thread: Federighi is going to be tested for Geno 2.0

  1. #1

    Federighi is going to be tested for Geno 2.0

    At last I decided to use my Geno 2.0 kit for my relative Federighi and it has been posted yesterday to Houston (Texas).
    MHK97 Federighi Santa Maria a Monte, Pisa, Italy
    12 25 14 10 11 14 11 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 24 15 20 29 15 15 16 16 10 10 19 23 16 12 12 11 12 12 23 10 13 12 12 13 30 24
    TKCMA Urovish Poland
    12 24 14 10 11 14 11 12 12 13 14 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 15 16 12 10 19 23 16 16 17 18 38 39 12 12 12 11 12 12 23 10 13 12 12 12 30 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 10 21 23 16 10 12 12 14 8 22 20 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 9 11 15 9 16 12 10 12 12 11 10 12 12 11 10 26 26 19 12

    The closest to Federighi is
    1 14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 11 15 20 16 16 23 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 M343
    1 of 165 Nicaragua [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
    at a GD of 1: DYS391=11 instead of 10 and H4=10+1.
    1 14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 20 16 18 23 11 20 22 14 14 17 10 - >>
    1 of 162 London, United Kingdom [English] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
    This sample from UK has DYS458=18.
    The other values (20 22 14 14 17 10) aren't tested on Federighi.
    Other closer values to investigate are these:
    14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 23 11 4 >>
    14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 20 23 12 3 >>
    14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 11 15 20 23 11 1 >>
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    The closest to Urovish and all the Jewish R-M269 cluster are these:
    14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 17 16 23 11 1 >>
    1 14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 17 16 23 11 17 22 13 12 18 11 - >>
    This is a close match. About these values (17 22 13 12 18 11 )
    DYS576= 17 (Urovish 17)
    DYS481= 22 (Urovish 22)
    DYS549= 13 (Urovish 12)
    DYS533= 12 (Urovish 12)
    DYS570= 18 (Urovish 18)
    DYS643= 11 (Urovish 10)
    there are two differences: DYS549 and DYS643, anyway close: difference of 1.
    Other close haplotypes are these:
    1 of 100 Budapest, Hungary [Hungarian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
    14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 11 1 >>
    1 14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 11 17 22 12 12 18 10

    1 of 84 Vilnius, Lithuania [Lithuanian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
    It is very likely that these haplotypes belong to Jews, seen also the places of origin, i.e. where the most part of the Ashkenazim lived.
    But if we change only the values of DYS456 and DYD458, we have these samples:

    14 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 11 1 >>
    14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 12 1 >>
    1 14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 12 19 24 12 12 18 10 - >>
    1 of 244 Poznan, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
    They seem close, but the 6 markers added are very different:
    19 24 12 12 18 10
    as to
    17 22 12 12 18 10
    Which are the conclusions? If these haplotypes from YHRD are R-M269+/L150+/PF7558/62/63+, the variance of the European clusters is higher than the Jewish ones, i.e. the Jewish haplotype (which is only one with a few mutations happened in a range if a few centuries) is introgressed from European people.
    The test on Federighi will try to answer about the origin of this European haplogroup, whose we already have a few samples from the Balkans to the Isles.
    Last edited by Rathna; 01-11-2014 at 08:58 AM.

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Rathna For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (01-11-2014),  rms2 (01-11-2014),  seferhabahir (01-11-2014),  Silesian (01-11-2014)

  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Of course we have a differing of opinion. I believe that both L584+ and L277+ are born from European R1b branches. We shall learn more as the Druze and Alawite samples are shown. In my opinion the Assyrian is just Iraqi with no special significant R1b signature, and with ANE admixture, they most likely they will be shown Iranian Turkish and Armenian R1b, as for the other Assyrian which are really Iraqi non R1b clades G1 J1 and J2a being most likely Arab and Jewish, but we shall have to wait and see with finer snp testing. Federighi is special and does not fit the L150 a or L150b which are the 2 special R1b Jewish sitr signature in Z2105 branch and show that they practiced endogamy in their small R1b Z2105 community, which makes them very special in our Z2105+ group just my opion. Anyway you can see very easy the difference DYS 426 combined with DYS 392.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    Silesian (and also rms2 who makes a claque hidden beyond a tree) I have said hundreds of times that these two haplogroups aren't unified by L150+ as the "Jewish R1b Project" pretends:

    1) is R-M269+/L150+/PF7558+/PF7562+/PF7563+ but L23-/L49-/PF6404-/Z2103-/Z2105-
    2) is R-L23+/L49+/L150+/PF6404+/Z2103+/Z2105+ and many other SNPs, and PF7558-/PF7562-/PF7563- etc.

    Actually the only SNP in common after M269 is L150+, but only because this R-M269* has had the same mutation, but I asked many times if there are R-M269* with L150-. I haven't seen them so far, and all the R-M269 on the "Adriano Squecco spreadsheet" are L150+.
    By the Geno 2.0 on Federighi I'll see also this. I expect he is L150+, because his haplotype, with DYS462=12, is the same of the Jewish cluster, but perhaps not all the R-M269* are L150+.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    Silesian (and also rms2 who makes a claque hidden beyond a tree) I have said hundreds of times that these two haplogroups aren't unified by L150+ as the "Jewish R1b Project" pretends:

    1) is R-M269+/L150+/PF7558+/PF7562+/PF7563+ but L23-/L49-/PF6404-/Z2103-/Z2105-
    2) is R-L23+/L49+/L150+/PF6404+/Z2103+/Z2105+ and many other SNPs, and PF7558-/PF7562-/PF7563- etc.

    Actually the only SNP in common after M269 is L150+, but only because this R-M269* has had the same mutation, but I asked many times if there are R-M269* with L150-. I haven't seen them so far, and all the R-M269 on the "Adriano Squecco spreadsheet" are L150+.
    By the Geno 2.0 on Federighi I'll see also this. I expect he is L150+, because his haplotyp excelle, with DYS462=12, is the same of the Jewish cluster, but perhaps not all the R-M269* are L150+.
    It's true there are two distinct R1b groups. However if you compare the R1a Levite Jewish you can see they also practiced endogamy. For me the confusion was trying link all the groups like Iraqis Alawites Druze so forth. We still really don't have a fully branched Z2105 tree with dated branches so, it is still very early. Anyway you bring up excellent points. Federighi is interesting I want to take a closer look a little bit later .

  5. #4
    Silesian, as it happens in genetics, there has been a transmigration of a few bp from your X to your Y:

    I expect he is L150+, because his haplotyp excelle, with DYS462=12, is the same of the Jewish cluster, but perhaps not all the R-M269* are L150+.

    Anyway you bring up excellent points. Federighi is interesting I want to take a closer look a little bit later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    Silesian, as it happens in genetics, there has been a transmigration of a few bp from your X to your Y:

    I expect he is L150+, because his haplotyp excelle, with DYS462=12, is the same of the Jewish cluster, but perhaps not all the R-M269* are L150+.

    Anyway you bring up excellent points. Federighi is interesting I want to take a closer look a little bit later.
    Okay with the resources and meager skills I calculated the time using str's, I know you do not like them, but that is all I have and very meek skill. Federighi and Italy KV7Y2 also Polish Ukraine and Lebanon.
    Federighi is far from Polish/Ukraine TKCMA/YRA5P-10/30 generations 400-500+/- B.C TMRCA
    TKCMA/YRA5P are in the same family 100% DYS 426-11 and DYS 392-14,-4/30 generation 1100+/- A.D TMCRA
    Distance between Polish/Ukraine and Lebanon G5CCP 14/30 generations 1700 B.C+/- TMCRA
    Frederighi and Italy KV7Y2 is 9/30 170+/- B.C

    However distance between Federighi and Lebanon is 6/30 630A.D +/- TMRCA

    They might not have the known snps to test for your theory yet.
    Last edited by Silesian; 01-11-2014 at 09:13 PM.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Okay with the resources and meager skills I calculated the time using str's, I know you do not like them, but that is all I have and very meek skill. Federighi and Italy KV7Y2 also Polish Ukraine and Lebanon.
    Federighi is far from Polish/Ukraine TKCMA/YRA5P-10/30 generations 400-500+/- B.C TMRCA
    TKCMA/YRA5P are in the same family 100% DYS 426-11 and DYS 392-14,-4/30 generation 1100+/- A.D TMCRA
    Distance between Polish/Ukraine and Lebanon G5CCP 14/30 generations 1700 B.C+/- TMCRA
    Frederighi and Italy KV7Y2 is 9/30 170+/- B.C

    However distance between Federighi and Lebanon is 6/30 630A.D +/- TMRCA

    They might not have the known snps to test for your theory yet.
    Silesian, KV7Y2 am I, and am R-Z2105 and (if Chromo 2 is reliable) I should be Z2110*, negative for CTS9219. Thus I should be compared only with those people who have my final SNP.
    Federighi, even though has been tested only by SMGF (because it was for free) and not for any SNP, I presuppose he is R-M269*. The next test by Geno 2.0 will say if he is L150+ and PF7558/PF7562/PF7563+. In this case he may be compared only with those people who have his final SNP. Probably you know that many think that these R-M269 aren't the most ancient people with that mutation, but only a survived line more recent (and this should mean that all the lines derived from R-M269* went extinct) and this line should be recent only for the fact that his ancestor is one person descended from R-M269* but after having had many mutations which would be his "modal". If you don't understand (or don't accept this) it is difficult to agree about anything. But this implies that there are mutations hidden and not counted, then the age of an haplogroup is older. This is demonstrated just by the Full Y, if many think that a SNP is worth about 100 years. Of course this theory has defeated once for ever all the theories about the MRCA I am fighting against from many years. But already the STRs of the aDNA had demonstrated that that calculation should be multiplied for at least 2.5.
    The recent paper of Rootsy et al. about the "Ashkenazi Levites" has demonstrated that between R-Z2110* and R-L584* there are at least 50 SNPs, i.e. a distance of 5000 years, and they found those SNPs not by testing the full genome, but only about 9Mbp (like the Big Y), thus a SNP should be worth more than 100 years.
    When I compared my haplotype with that of Silver following the old methods (you are following yet) it seemed that we were separated by less than 2000 years but now we know that I am R-Z2110* and Silver is R-L584, thus at least we are separated from more than 5000 years, just 2000 multiplied for 2.5.
    Of course you are free to follow your theories like all the others.
    Last edited by Rathna; 01-11-2014 at 10:33 PM.

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  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    Silesian, KV7Y2 am I,
    Of course I thought you might want private Silver is not to strong maybe his family used to be Catholic?[not many like him] so I use the two main unrelated branches L150A and L150B. Your theory is very interesting, but I don't think they have snp's discovered yet to prove one way or the other.
    Last edited by Silesian; 01-11-2014 at 10:31 PM.

  10. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Your theory is very interesting, but I don't think they have snp's discovered yet to prove one way or the other.
    We have discussed a lot about the paper of Rootsy et al., Phylogenetic applications of whole Y-chromosome sequences and the Near East origin of Ashkenazi Levites. Find it and the supplements and you'll find all what I said.

  11. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Of course I thought you might want private Silver is not to strong maybe his family used to be Catholic?[not many like him] so I use the two main unrelated branches L150A and L150B. Your theory is very interesting, but I don't think they have snp's discovered yet to prove one way or the other.
    It's not a good idea to question someone's heritage. Mr. Silver has a strong history of supporting R1b-Z2103 phylogeny and research. We need his support and help. IMO
    Last edited by Joe B; 01-12-2014 at 02:55 AM.

  12. #10
    Federighi's kit, posted to Genographic on 10 January, is at the final stage (quality control), thus it has already been tested. Mangino sent his sample (already c/o FTDNA) in the last days of last year or at the beginning of this year: where has it ended now?
    And Mattoli and his L277?

    P.S. For Federighi will have also the coding region of his R0a2k!

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