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Thread: How discernible is Malayan/Indonesian from South Chinese autosomally?

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    How discernible is Malayan/Indonesian from South Chinese autosomally?

    I regularly score Southeastern Asian, but not Northeast Asian. Given that I'm an Ashkenazi Jew, a southern Chinese source would make sense.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    I regularly score Southeastern Asian, but not Northeast Asian. Given that I'm an Ashkenazi Jew, a southern Chinese source would make sense.
    Is it from the medieval probably South-Chinese M33c woman who entered the Ashkenazi gene pool? (see here).

    Indonesia and Philippines are dominated by an Austronesian component with some Austro-Asiatic (the non-Papua-related areas). South-China also has these components, but they also often have a lot of Tai-Kadai-related ancestry. (see here and here ).

    So it is possible to distinguish them; if companies learnt to pick their reference pops better, I wouldn't get South Chinese or Vietnamese. K36 easily gives me Indonesian or Malay.
    Last edited by Pylsteen; 09-26-2019 at 08:33 PM.

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    I don't think it's easy to tell where your Eastern Asian ancestry is from if it's less than 2% or so. The distribution of mtDNA haplogroup M33c strongly suggests that the trace East Asian ancestry in Ashkenazi Jews is of Cantonese/Guangdong origin. This isn't surprising considering the provincial capital Guangzhou was a fairly cosmopolitan port city during the Tang Dynasty, and still is today.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...s_distribution

    Haplogroup M33b'c
    Haplogroup M33b - Nepal (Tharu)
    Haplogroup M33b1 - Sonowal Kachari, Dai (Jianshui)
    Haplogroup M33b2 - India, Nepal (Kathmandu)
    Haplogroup M33c - Jews (Lithuania, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, USA, Hungary, Austria, Latvia, Poland), Han Chinese (Zhanjiang), Yao (Jianghua)
    Pylsteen if you scored both Indonesia and India it's more likely you have some distant Indonesian ancestry (although that could be still mixed with South Chinese).
    Last edited by okarinaofsteiner; 09-26-2019 at 09:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by okarinaofsteiner View Post
    Pylsteen if you scored both Indonesia and India it's more likely you have some distant Indonesian ancestry (although that could be still mixed with South Chinese).
    yes, that is my paper ancestry. My grandmother scores ~17% SE Asian and ~5% Indian and that is in line with her Dutch Indies (Java and Borneo) and British Indies (India) ancestry; her 1/32 Hindu ancestor from Andhra Pradesh gave her mt-dna M3c (not to be confused with M33c here!). I think it is the Austronesian signal that makes Indonesia and South China close to each other; but perhaps there is some Chinese in me; before the 19th century, anything could have happened, there were more Chinese than Dutch traders in Indonesia.
    Last edited by Pylsteen; 09-26-2019 at 09:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by okarinaofsteiner View Post
    I don't think it's easy to tell where your Eastern Asian ancestry is from if it's less than 2% or so. The distribution of mtDNA haplogroup M33c strongly suggests that the trace East Asian ancestry in Ashkenazi Jews is of Cantonese Han (or Daic) origin. This isn't surprising considering Guangzhou was a fairly cosmopolitan port city during the Tang Dynasty, and still is today.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...s_distribution



    Pylsteen if you scored both Indonesia and India it's more likely you have some distant Indonesian ancestry (although that could be still mixed with South Chinese).
    It usually comes out a bit higher than 2%, 2.4-2.6% on G25 normally.

    Eurogenes K13:

    Population
    North_Atlantic 14.95 Pct
    Baltic 4.98 Pct
    West_Med 19.02 Pct
    West_Asian 14.45 Pct
    East_Med 35.68 Pct
    Red_Sea 6.14 Pct
    South_Asian -
    East_Asian 2.39 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 0.08 Pct
    Oceanian 0.97 Pct
    Northeast_African 0.18 Pct
    Sub-Saharan 1.16 Pct

    Eurogenes K36: 1.5 Malayan, 0.33 Oceanian

    on G25, it usually comes out as Java.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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    I can post other results if they'll be helpful.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    I can post other results if they'll be helpful.
    MDLP K23b and HarappaWorld from GEDmatch would be helpful. MDLP K23b has a large number of East Asian reference populations, while HarappaWorld distinguishes northern East Asia and southern SE Asia very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by okarinaofsteiner View Post
    MDLP K23b and HarappaWorld from GEDmatch would be helpful. MDLP K23b has a large number of East Asian reference populations, while HarappaWorld distinguishes northern East Asia and southern SE Asia very well.
    MDLP K23b:

    Population
    Amerindian -
    Ancestral_Altaic 1.66 Pct
    South_Central_Asian 7.86 Pct
    Arctic -
    South_Indian -
    Australoid 0.58 Pct
    Austronesian 0.88 Pct
    Caucasian 33.82 Pct
    Archaic_Human -
    East_African 0.29 Pct
    East_Siberian -
    European_Early_Farmers 20.32 Pct
    Khoisan -
    Melano_Polynesian 0.84 Pct
    Archaic_African 0.64 Pct
    Near_East 13.61 Pct
    North_African 9.58 Pct
    Paleo_Siberian 0.35 Pct
    African_Pygmy -
    South_East_Asian 1.18 Pct
    Subsaharian -
    Tungus-Altaic -
    European_Hunters_Gatherers 8.39 Pct
    MDLP K23b Oracle:

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Moroccan_Jew ( ) 5.72
    2 Sephardic_Jew ( ) 6.3
    3 Sicilian_West ( ) 6.34
    4 Turk_Jew ( ) 7.15
    5 Sicilian_Agrigento ( ) 7.3
    6 Maltese ( ) 7.31
    7 Ashkenazi_Jew ( ) 7.65
    8 Libyan_Jew ( ) 8.13
    9 French_Jew ( ) 8.29
    10 Italian_Jew ( ) 8.34
    11 Sicilian_Trapani ( ) 8.36
    12 Tunisian_Jew ( ) 9.49
    13 Sicilian_Siracusa ( ) 9.84
    14 Sicilian_East ( ) 10.13
    15 Bulgarian ( ) 11.69
    16 Ashkenazi ( ) 11.69
    17 Syrian_Jew ( ) 11.83
    18 Greek_Northwest ( ) 11.86
    19 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 11.87
    20 Macedonian ( ) 12.17

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 77.2% Syrian_Jew ( ) + 22.8% Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) @ 2.6
    2 64.1% Lebanese_Muslim ( ) + 35.9% Portugese ( ) @ 2.76
    3 89.5% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 10.5% Uygur-Han ( ) @ 2.78
    4 67.8% Lebanese_Muslim ( ) + 32.2% Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) @ 2.8
    5 88.2% Moroccan_Jew ( ) + 11.8% Tajik_Yagnobi ( ) @ 2.86
    6 60.6% Lebanese_Druze ( ) + 39.4% Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) @ 2.87
    7 74.3% Syrian_Jew ( ) + 25.7% Portugese ( ) @ 2.88
    8 74.9% Maltese ( ) + 25.1% Iraki ( ) @ 2.92
    9 90.3% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 9.7% Uygur ( ) @ 2.96
    10 71.2% Maltese ( ) + 28.8% Muslim_Arabs_Israel ( ) @ 2.97
    11 86.1% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 13.9% Finn ( ) @ 3.02
    12 86.7% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 13.3% Karelian ( ) @ 3.04
    13 84.3% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 15.7% Tatar-Mishar ( ) @ 3.06
    14 84% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 16% Finn_West ( ) @ 3.11
    15 85.7% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 14.3% Tatar_Mishar ( ) @ 3.11
    16 93.1% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 6.9% Mamanawa ( ) @ 3.14
    17 89.5% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 10.5% Bashkir ( ) @ 3.14
    18 85.5% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 14.5% Finnish_FIN ( ) @ 3.15
    19 85.9% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 14.1% Finn_East ( ) @ 3.16
    20 93.3% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 6.7% Ati ( ) @ 3.16
    MDLP 4-way oracle:


    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Moroccan_Jew_ +50% Sicilian_West_ @ 4.152946


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Lebanese_Muslim_ +25% Sicilian_West_ +25% Spanish_Canarias_IBS_ @ 2.354942

    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 French_ + Kurd_Jew_ + Tunisian_Jew_ + Tunisian_Jew_ @ 1.773350
    2 French_ + Iranian_Jew_ + Tunisian_Jew_ + Tunisian_Jew_ @ 1.885455
    3 French_ + Kurd_Jew_ + Libyan_Jew_ + Tunisian_Jew_ @ 1.954173
    4 French_ + Iranian_Jew_ + Libyan_Jew_ + Tunisian_Jew_ @ 1.957618
    5 French_ + Iraqi_Mandean_ + Tunisian_Jew_ + Tunisian_Jew_ @ 2.067707
    6 French_ + Tunisian_Jew_ + Tunisian_Jew_ + Uzbekistani_Jew_ @ 2.102643
    7 Ashkenazi_Jew_ + Christian_Arabs_Israel_ + Iraki_ + Spanish_Canarias_IBS_ @ 2.121002
    8 Iraki_ + Italian_Jew_ + Italian_North_ + Libyan_Jew_ @ 2.147189
    9 Cretan_ + Lebanese_ + Spanish_Canarias_IBS_ + Syrian_Jew_ @ 2.165440
    10 Iraqi_Chaldean_ + Italian_North_ + Libyan_Jew_ + Moroccan_Jew_ @ 2.175002
    11 French_ + Iraqi_Chaldean_ + Tunisian_Jew_ + Tunisian_Jew_ @ 2.178502
    12 Christian_Arabs_Israel_ + Iraki_ + Sicilian_West_ + Spanish_Canarias_IBS_ @ 2.179901
    13 Iraki_ + Italian_North_ + Libyan_Jew_ + Sephardic_Jew_ @ 2.187095
    14 Georgian_Jew_ + Maltese_ + Samaritian_ + Spanish_Canarias_IBS_ @ 2.204173
    15 French_Jew_ + Iraki_ + Italian_North_ + Libyan_Jew_ @ 2.226631
    16 French_ + Iranian_Jew_ + Moroccan_Jew_ + Tunisian_Jew_ @ 2.234493
    17 Christian_Arabs_Israel_ + Iraki_ + Maltese_ + Portugese_ @ 2.235119
    18 Christian_Arabs_Israel_ + Iraki_ + Sicilian_East_ + Spanish_Canarias_IBS_ @ 2.241380
    19 Libyan_Jew_ + Portugese_ + Samaritian_ + Turk_Istanbul_ @ 2.241745
    20 French_ + Lebanese_ + Syrian_Jew_ + Tunisian_Jew_ @ 2.243526
    HarappaWorld:

    Population
    S-Indian -
    Baloch 8.83 Pct
    Caucasian 33.71 Pct
    NE-Euro 12.87 Pct
    SE-Asian 2.24 Pct
    Siberian 0.28 Pct
    NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.76 Pct
    American 0.06 Pct
    Beringian 0.27 Pct
    Mediterranean 23.52 Pct
    SW-Asian 16.13 Pct
    San 0.17 Pct
    E-African 0.17 Pct
    Pygmy 0.54 Pct
    W-African 0.45 Pct
    HarappaWorld Oracle:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 ashkenazy-jew (behar) 4.18
    2 sephardic-jew (behar) 5.89
    3 ashkenazi (harappa) 7.4
    4 morocco-jew (behar) 7.68
    5 turk-aydin (hodoglugil) 14.41
    6 cypriot (behar) 15.82
    7 tuscan (1000genomes) 16.02
    8 tuscan (hgdp) 16.61
    9 lebanese (behar) 16.98
    10 tuscan (hapmap) 17.22
    11 turk-kayseri (hodoglugil) 18.49
    12 turk-istanbul (hodoglugil) 18.87
    13 syrian (behar) 19.46
    14 palestinian (harappa) 19.74
    15 lebanese-muslim (haber) 19.82
    16 turkish (harappa) 20.12
    17 turk (behar) 20.17
    18 jordanian (behar) 20.23
    19 armenian (harappa) 20.99
    20 iraqi-arab (harappa) 21.24

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 61.3% lebanese-christian (haber) + 38.7% spaniard (1000genomes) @ 2.66
    2 61% lebanese-druze (haber) + 39% spaniard (1000genomes) @ 2.86
    3 59.2% lebanese (behar) + 40.8% italian (hgdp) @ 2.86
    4 51.5% tuscan (1000genomes) + 48.5% lebanese (behar) @ 3.15
    5 53.1% tuscan (hapmap) + 46.9% syrian (behar) @ 3.16
    6 88.5% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 11.5% iraqi-arab (harappa) @ 3.17
    7 88.1% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 11.9% palestinian (harappa) @ 3.25
    8 91.5% sephardic-jew (behar) + 8.5% mordovian (yunusbayev) @ 3.32
    9 95.3% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 4.7% makrani (hgdp) @ 3.33
    10 63.8% lebanese-muslim (haber) + 36.2% spaniard (behar) @ 3.34
    11 53.5% tuscan (hapmap) + 46.5% palestinian (harappa) @ 3.34
    12 55% tuscan (1000genomes) + 45% syrian (behar) @ 3.35
    13 91.3% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 8.7% iranian (behar) @ 3.35
    14 87.1% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 12.9% lebanese (behar) @ 3.37
    15 91.3% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 8.7% iraqi-mandaean (harappa) @ 3.38
    16 64.2% lebanese-muslim (haber) + 35.8% spaniard (1000genomes) @ 3.38
    17 95.7% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 4.3% brahui (hgdp) @ 3.39
    18 88.7% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 11.3% syrian (behar) @ 3.39
    19 55.4% tuscan (1000genomes) + 44.6% palestinian (harappa) @ 3.39
    20 89.1% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 10.9% jordanian (behar) @ 3.39
    HarappaWorld 4-way Oracle:

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% lebanese_behar +50% tuscan_hapmap @ 3.139867


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% lebanese_behar +25% tuscan_hapmap +25% tuscan_hapmap @ 3.139867


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 ashkenazy-jew_behar + lebanese_behar + lebanese-christian_haber + spaniard_behar @ 2.565024
    2 ashkenazy-jew_behar + lebanese_behar + lebanese-druze_haber + spaniard_behar @ 2.582770
    3 ashkenazy-jew_behar + lebanese_behar + lebanese-druze_haber + spaniard_1000genomes @ 2.596389
    4 ashkenazi_harappa + lebanese_behar + lebanese-christian_haber + spaniard_behar @ 2.611447
    5 ashkenazy-jew_behar + iraq-jew_behar + italian_hgdp + morocco-jew_behar @ 2.617996
    6 ashkenazy-jew_behar + samaritian_behar + spaniard_1000genomes + turkish_harappa @ 2.622269
    7 ashkenazi_harappa + lebanese_behar + lebanese-christian_haber + spaniard_1000genomes @ 2.628800
    8 armenian_harappa + ashkenazi_harappa + samaritian_behar + spaniard_1000genomes @ 2.633837
    9 ashkenazy-jew_behar + lebanese_behar + lebanese-christian_haber + spaniard_1000genomes @ 2.638877
    10 ashkenazy-jew_behar + iranian-jew_behar + italian_hgdp + morocco-jew_behar @ 2.642404
    11 morocco-jew_behar + samaritian_behar + spaniard_behar + turk-istanbul_hodoglugil @ 2.647782
    12 ashkenazi_harappa + lebanese_behar + lebanese-druze_haber + spaniard_1000genomes @ 2.666531
    13 armenian_harappa + ashkenazy-jew_behar + samaritian_behar + spaniard_1000genomes @ 2.671528
    14 iranian-jew_behar + samaritian_behar + spaniard_1000genomes + tuscan_1000genomes @ 2.678633
    15 ashkenazy-jew_behar + iraqi-mandaean_harappa + italian_hgdp + morocco-jew_behar @ 2.680142
    16 iranian-jew_behar + samaritian_behar + spaniard_behar + tuscan_1000genomes @ 2.697407
    17 iranian-jew_behar + samaritian_behar + spaniard_1000genomes + tuscan_hgdp @ 2.709239
    18 ashkenazi_harappa + lebanese_behar + lebanese-druze_haber + spaniard_behar @ 2.717426
    19 iranian-jew_behar + samaritian_behar + spaniard_behar + tuscan_hgdp @ 2.731537
    20 morocco-jew_behar + samaritian_behar + spaniard_1000genomes + turk-istanbul_hodoglugil @ 2.733092
    Last edited by StillWater; 09-27-2019 at 05:29 AM.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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    Interesting, I have a similar segment that I inherited from my Ashkenazi ancestors too (my grandmother who is 50% Jewish, of which 25% Ashkenazi shares it). It's on chromosome 16 surrounded by typically Ashkenazi segments.
    It comes up as Filipino on 23andme and Dusun (Northern Borneo) using G25 for me, and Broadly Chinese and Southeast Asian for her.

    Now, Dusun, Filipino as well as Indonesian (Java) are all Southeast Asian Austronesian speakers, in great part descended from Taiwanese aboriginals (who themselves seem to originate from coastal Eastern China during neolithic times, Yangtze delta and Fujian in particular). Either we're dealing with a segment brought in from a coastal Chinese person. Or, this could be very well be through someone from the Indian Ocean. Austronesian haplotypes can be found in Madagascar (obviously) as well as Comoros, Zanzibar and the Swahili coast, all places heavily involved in the Indian Ocean trade system. This is my favoured hypothesis as to my segment.

    Malayan on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. Malayans in the Eurogenese database are actually an ASI-heavy population from inland Kerala. They are not connected at all to Malays nor any other maritime Southeast Asia populations.

    Do you have your G25 coordinates?
    Last edited by loxias; 09-27-2019 at 01:28 PM.

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