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Thread: On the Genetic Position of Cornwall

  1. #21
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    Interesting discussion and good to see a new knowledgeable contributor.
    Unfortunately I am very much tied up with other things at present.
    I'd just like to throw in a couple of raw thoughts at present.

    4 grandparents for locality.
    Many Cornish moved out over the past 200 years.
    Substantial in-flow is certainly noted from 1960 on, but the problem with people moving out is that 1) you lose subjects in the area
    2) you gain people elsewhere who are really Cornish
    For example, there was a lot of movement to South Wales from the late 1700s on and into Devon in the 1800s.
    And further afield at the same time.
    All of these would have ended up at the time of DNA sampling with 4 grandparents in their new area.
    And made that area look more like Cornwall.

    Cornwall was not monolithic.
    My several lines are from Kerrier and Penwith.
    While there was some infeed to my lines from adjacent areas from 250-300 years ago and beyond, most stayed within this area.
    Whereas friends with Cornish up on the Devon border had ancestors back and forth across it all the time. They did not necessarily travel further than mine.
    It's just that their area sat astride the border: essentially they were inhabitants of the Tamar Valley rather than Devon or Cornish.
    The coming of the railway to first Plymouth and then Truro probably helped mobility at the Devon end of Cornwall a little as well.
    One of the factors that fuzzied the grandparent genetic sampling.

    Early population structure
    Just as the "dark Welsh" (e.g. geneticist Steve Jones) are supposed to have come up the Atlantic shore from further south, maybe Spain;
    so surely some Cornish have deep genetic affinities there - rather than France?
    According to various ethnicity estimates, part of mine connects there.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    Interesting discussion and good to see a new knowledgeable contributor.
    Unfortunately I am very much tied up with other things at present.
    I'd just like to throw in a couple of raw thoughts at present.

    4 grandparents for locality.
    Many Cornish moved out over the past 200 years.
    Substantial in-flow is certainly noted from 1960 on, but the problem with people moving out is that 1) you lose subjects in the area
    2) you gain people elsewhere who are really Cornish
    For example, there was a lot of movement to South Wales from the late 1700s on and into Devon in the 1800s.
    And further afield at the same time.
    All of these would have ended up at the time of DNA sampling with 4 grandparents in their new area.
    And made that area look more like Cornwall.

    Cornwall was not monolithic.
    My several lines are from Kerrier and Penwith.
    While there was some infeed to my lines from adjacent areas from 250-300 years ago and beyond, most stayed within this area.
    Whereas friends with Cornish up on the Devon border had ancestors back and forth across it all the time. They did not necessarily travel further than mine.
    It's just that their area sat astride the border: essentially they were inhabitants of the Tamar Valley rather than Devon or Cornish.
    The coming of the railway to first Plymouth and then Truro probably helped mobility at the Devon end of Cornwall a little as well.
    One of the factors that fuzzied the grandparent genetic sampling.

    Early population structure
    Just as the "dark Welsh" (e.g. geneticist Steve Jones) are supposed to have come up the Atlantic shore from further south, maybe Spain;
    so surely some Cornish have deep genetic affinities there - rather than France?
    According to various ethnicity estimates, part of mine connects there.
    Have you ever seen Tamar used as a first name? I ask because I wasn't aware of the Tamar Valley, yet my one line that I am certain is Cornish, Treby changed to Tribby, married a Tamar Poulton, late 1700's in Loudoun County, Virginia.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Have you ever seen Tamar used as a first name? I ask because I wasn't aware of the Tamar Valley, yet my one line that I am certain is Cornish, Treby changed to Tribby, married a Tamar Poulton, late 1700's in Loudoun County, Virginia.
    Tamar is a Biblical name so that seems the most likely explanation for that time.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,100 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Tamar is a Biblical name so that seems the most likely explanation for that time.
    I should have known that from years of Sunday school study. In fact I did know that but misplaced the memory of learning it. So you are most likely correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    I’m not saying that Cornwall is not at all genetically distinct from England, it clearly separates from England consistently in each study. However, the degree of distinction we see in Cornwall is more comparable to that of the degree of separation we see in Northern England and is certainly less than that of Wales or Scotland. The question I am asking those of you who took the time to read this is: “why do you think Cornwall remains so similar to England genetically despite its distinctive cultural identity?” I personally think that there are two major options, the first could be that the Cornish have not retained that much of their Insular Celtic genetic legacy, perhaps due to migrations from England. However, I think that there could be a second possibility: what if we were to frame the question as “why is England as genetically similar to Cornwall as it is?” Could it be that the genetic distance between England and Cornwall is representative of England retaining much of their Insular Celtic heritage instead?
    Don't these maps go a long way in clarifying the situation?
    R1b-L21 Distribution.jpg
    R1b-U106 Distribution.jpg
    I1 Distribution.jpg
    Last edited by Celt_??; 12-11-2019 at 10:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celt_?? View Post
    Don't these maps go a long way in clarifying the situation?
    R1b-L21 Distribution.jpg
    R1b-U106 Distribution.jpg
    I1 Distribution.jpg
    I'm not sure. Looks like it has a fair bit of L21 and also a fair bit of S21. Do we have newer data on the Y-DNA haplogroups of Britain than this somewhere? I think those maps have been around for quite a while.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, Eastern German 12.5%, Eastern European (Likely Polish possibly including Romanian) 12.5%, French 7.81%, Native American (Saulteaux and Assiniboine) 2.34%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be traced with certainty. With certainty, there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English.

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    I'm not sure. Looks like it has a fair bit of L21 and also a fair bit of S21. Do we have newer data on the Y-DNA haplogroups of Britain than this somewhere? I think those maps have been around for quite a while.
    I wanted to add, although it may be outdated information (2015) from https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results

    Jan 2015. First summary of results

    Of these, eight are I (about the same incidence as the rest of Great Britain) and five are "rarer" haplogroups (R1a E G J Eastern R1b). This gives a little over 80% R1b, similar to Ireland.

    The R1b is quite mixed. About 2/3 is P312 )and 1/3 is U106. The latter is a little higher than the English average.

    We have four R-U198, a very old subclade of U106 largely restricted to Britain.

    The numbers in CORNWALL are still too small for statistically significant results - we are aiming at about 250.
    The R1b Backbone Test has finally allowed us to analyse our most important haplogroup, R1b. The most surprising result is that we have almost as much R-DF27, the Iberian subclade, as we do R-L21, the 'Celtic' subclade. This probably represents multiple incursions from the Continent (Spain and Brittany) over thousands of years.
    I wish we actually had decent data from France on DF27.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, Eastern German 12.5%, Eastern European (Likely Polish possibly including Romanian) 12.5%, French 7.81%, Native American (Saulteaux and Assiniboine) 2.34%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be traced with certainty. With certainty, there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English.

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celt_?? View Post
    Don't these maps go a long way in clarifying the situation?
    R1b-L21 Distribution.jpg
    R1b-U106 Distribution.jpg
    I1 Distribution.jpg
    Well the I1 says there is very little Viking in Cornwall compared with England, particularly East Anglia.
    Even less than Ireland (although that is surely showing the later Norman invasion).

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    I wanted to add, although it may be outdated information (2015) from https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results





    I wish we actually had decent data from France on DF27.
    I agree. I would also like to see a good Ydna survey of Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall, similar to the Underhill/Myres studies. The spreadsheet I have the combines all three studies together reports P312(L21, M222, U152) as such:

    Ireland Southwest: 23%
    Ireland East: 19%
    Ireland North: 14%
    Ireland South: 13%

    Being that it is Ireland, I would assume that most of this is DF27. If it was the continent then you would have to assume some would be DF19, DF99, or L238. But as these are not common in Ireland, then it should be mostly DF27. Plus there is the large Laigin Cluster, which is just what I call it. There is actually a link from the Wiki Laigin page to the Breasal Breac DNA project where they are claiming this large DF27 cluster are direct descendants of Breasal Breac. I'm not one to favor linking a group to an actual person, but the surnames in this cluster are all lineages associated with the Laigin. This cluster also shares a great grandfather SNP with the DF27 O'Neill group. The interesting thing about this group is that at the Family Tree DNA O'Neill project, the DF27 group is by far the largest. 111 DF27 O'Neills versus 82 M222 O'Niells. If you read about the Laigin, it is suggested they were an intrusive migration from either Briton or Gaul into Ireland no later than 500B.C. The third cluster is a DF17 cluster that is also from the Southwest area of Ireland and are distantly related, all with Gaelic surnames. I would be curious to see what DF27 or at the very least, P312(L21xM222xU152) looks like in the rest of the Celtic areas of Britain.

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  17. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    I agree. I would also like to see a good Ydna survey of Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall, similar to the Underhill/Myres studies. The spreadsheet I have the combines all three studies together reports P312(L21, M222, U152) as such:

    Ireland Southwest: 23%
    Ireland East: 19%
    Ireland North: 14%
    Ireland South: 13%

    Being that it is Ireland, I would assume that most of this is DF27. If it was the continent then you would have to assume some would be DF19, DF99, or L238. But as these are not common in Ireland, then it should be mostly DF27. Plus there is the large Laigin Cluster, which is just what I call it. There is actually a link from the Wiki Laigin page to the Breasal Breac DNA project where they are claiming this large DF27 cluster are direct descendants of Breasal Breac. I'm not one to favor linking a group to an actual person, but the surnames in this cluster are all lineages associated with the Laigin. This cluster also shares a great grandfather SNP with the DF27 O'Neill group. The interesting thing about this group is that at the Family Tree DNA O'Neill project, the DF27 group is by far the largest. 111 DF27 O'Neills versus 82 M222 O'Niells. If you read about the Laigin, it is suggested they were an intrusive migration from either Briton or Gaul into Ireland no later than 500B.C. The third cluster is a DF17 cluster that is also from the Southwest area of Ireland and are distantly related, all with Gaelic surnames. I would be curious to see what DF27 or at the very least, P312(L21xM222xU152) looks like in the rest of the Celtic areas of Britain.
    Could you clarify this please? Combined P312 for Ireland SW is 23%? That's how it reads to me but that can't be right as I thought L21 was in the majority for all regions of Ireland?
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, Eastern German 12.5%, Eastern European (Likely Polish possibly including Romanian) 12.5%, French 7.81%, Native American (Saulteaux and Assiniboine) 2.34%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be traced with certainty. With certainty, there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English.

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