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Thread: Subtraction of known origin in G25

  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    It is very difficult for me to extract such vague descriptions like Scottish/Shetlandic or English/Welsh. I will not do such things anymore. I am not this forum Papa Smurf.

    I tried to extract 25% Shetlandic and 17.5% Welsh and 20% English. The result is:

     
    [1] "distance%=2.3924"


    GeraldMinusIsles


    Swiss_French,26.2
    Shetlandic,18.6
    Norwegian,15
    Spanish_Soria,8.4
    Welsh,8.4
    Slovakian,4.2
    Swiss_Italian,4.2
    Spanish_Galicia,2.8
    Cossack_Kuban,1.8
    Italian_Tuscany,0.8
    Lak,0.8
    Avar,0.6
    Chechen,0.6
    Darginian,0.6
    Kubachinian,0.6
    Balkar,0.4
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,0.4
    Dinka,0.4
    Montenegrin,0.4
    Nasoi,0.4
    Sudanese,0.4
    Aeta,0.2
    Ami,0.2
    Berber_MAR_TIZ,0.2
    Elmolo,0.2
    Ethiopian_Ari_blacksmith,0.2
    Georgian_Laz,0.2
    Hadza,0.2
    Hawaiian,0.2
    Indonesian_Java,0.2
    Ingushian,0.2
    Jatt_Pathak,0.2
    Kaitag,0.2
    Koinanbe,0.2
    Kumyk,0.2
    Lebbo,0.2
    Malay,0.2
    Russian_Tver,0.2
    Sengwer,0.2
    Sorb_Niederlausitz,0.2
    Tajik_Yagnobi,0.2



    Shetlandic again appeared, so I extracted 10% of Shetlandic more (35% Shetlandic and 17.5% Welsh and 20% English).
    The result was:



     
    [1] "distance%=3.6195"


    GeraldMinusIslesScottAndShe01


    Shetlandic,16.4
    Swiss_French,16.2
    Spanish_Soria,15.6
    Cossack_Kuban,8.4
    Slovakian,8
    Swiss_Italian,7.4
    Norwegian,7.2
    Italian_Tuscany,5.2
    Avar,1.6
    Tabasaran,1.4
    Welsh,1.4
    Chechen,1.2
    Lak,1.2
    Kubachinian,1
    Adygei,0.6
    Ethiopian_Ari,0.6
    Canary_Islands_Guanche,0.4
    Datog,0.4
    Kaitag,0.4
    Saharawi,0.4
    Sandawe,0.4
    Aeta,0.2
    Agta,0.2
    Bajo,0.2
    Berber_MAR_TIZ,0.2
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,0.2
    Dai,0.2
    Darginian,0.2
    Ethiopian_Anuak,0.2
    Ethiopian_Ari_blacksmith,0.2
    Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator,0.2
    Ethiopian_Gumuz,0.2
    Ethiopian_Mursi,0.2
    Hadza,0.2
    Htin_Mal,0.2
    Indonesian_Bali,0.2
    Iraqw,0.2
    Luzon,0.2
    Mlabri,0.2
    Murut,0.2
    Nasoi,0.2
    Rendille,0.2
    Russian_Tver,0.2
    Vizayan,0.2


    Again Shetlandic. So I extracted 7.5% more of Shetlandic (42.5% Shetlandic and 17.5% Welsh and 20% English).
    This I got:


    [1] "distance%=4.9044"


    GeraldMinusIslesScottAndShe0175


    Spanish_Soria,32
    Cossack_Kuban,20.4
    Swiss_Italian,10.2
    Italian_Tuscany,7.6
    Slovakian,6.6
    Chechen,4.4
    Lak,3.6
    Tabasaran,2.8
    Swiss_French,2.2
    Shetlandic,0.8
    Aeta,0.6
    Avar,0.6
    Berber_MAR_TIZ,0.6
    Bajo,0.4
    Canary_Islands_Guanche,0.4
    Darginian,0.4
    Dusun,0.4
    Elmolo,0.4
    Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator,0.4
    Htin_Mal,0.4
    Kubachinian,0.4
    Lebbo,0.4
    Luzon,0.4
    Masai,0.4
    Algerian,0.2
    Ami,0.2
    Batak,0.2
    Dinka,0.2
    Ethiopian_Anuak,0.2
    Ethiopian_Mursi,0.2
    Indonesian_Bali,0.2
    Koinanbe,0.2
    Kosipe,0.2
    Luhya_Kenya,0.2
    Malay,0.2
    Moroccan_North,0.2
    Mozabite,0.2
    Sengwer,0.2
    Sudanese,0.2
    Thai,0.2
    Thank you for all the work you did with this. to my novice eyes this calculator seems to be NW shifted based on the amounts used for these results. no German or German'esk groups came up, like Shetlandic and Welsh took up all of my Scottish and English and the English took up all of my German... leaving Spain with only a little North Italian to support it. this to me seems like if you took the groups used and remaining then on a map slid them over to the east a bit and a little south, my ethnicity would show as I know it. I'm really surprised that no German showed up in the listings. I am a little surprised by all the Caucus groups showing......
    Last edited by JerryS.; 11-22-2019 at 02:51 PM.

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  3. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    I can't do that, because you did not specify percentages to extract. In nMonte you don't have neither Italian nor South French.
    Okay, perhaps I misunderstood what it is youíre doing. Are you removing the populations from my coordinates?
    Paper Trail: 43.8% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA: 88.1% British Isles (59.7% English, 27% Scottish & 1.3% Irish), 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%), 4.4% Europe NW (Scandinavia) & 1.6% Europe East, (Mordovia).
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >A13252/YSEQ (circa 1630 AD).

  4. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    What you specified as your ancestry just don't add up to your G25 values.
     

    Extracted 50% IEnglish gives to you:

    [1] "distance%=3.2263"


    digitalMinusEnglish


    Italian_Liguria,53.6
    Slovenian,13.2
    German_East,8
    Italian_Lombardy,7.6
    Serbian,3.2
    Turkish_Azer,2.6
    Russian_Smolensk,1.2
    Albanian,1
    Belarusian,1
    Gagauz,1
    Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator,0.8
    Dinka,0.6
    Ethiopian_Afar,0.4
    Ethiopian_Mursi,0.4
    Ju_hoan_North,0.4
    Spanish_Pais_Vasco,0.4
    Sudanese,0.4
    Bolivian_LaPaz,0.2
    Bulgarian,0.2
    Dungan,0.2
    Elmolo,0.2
    Ethiopian_Ari,0.2
    Ethiopian_Ari_blacksmith,0.2
    Ethiopian_Oromo,0.2
    Ethiopian_Wolayta,0.2
    Han_NChina,0.2
    Ket,0.2
    Kosipe,0.2
    Lithuanian,0.2
    Masai,0.2
    Miao,0.2
    Ogiek,0.2
    Russian_Voronez,0.2
    Samaritan,0.2
    Sengwer,0.2
    She,0.2
    Sicilian_East,0.2
    Somali,0.2

    It looks that Italian Liguria account s for your 25% Italian.

    When I extract 50% English and 25% Italian Liguria, you get:

    [1] "distance%=6.3053"


    digitalMinusEnglishMinusItalian


    Slovenian,21.8
    Belarusian,15.8
    Turkish_Azer,13.2
    Italian_Lombardy,9
    Russian_Smolensk,7.6
    Italian_Liguria,6.8
    Ogiek,3.6
    Albanian,2
    Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator,1.8
    German_East,1.4
    Serbian,1.4
    Ethiopian_Mursi,1.2
    Basque_French,1
    Iraqw,1
    Masai,1
    Dinka,0.8
    Ethiopian_Anuak,0.8
    Lithuanian,0.8
    Sengwer,0.8
    Elmolo,0.6
    Ethiopian_Ari_blacksmith,0.6
    She,0.6
    Spanish_Pais_Vasco,0.6
    Sudanese,0.6
    Datog,0.4
    Ethiopian_Gumuz,0.4
    Hadza,0.4
    Koinanbe,0.4
    Nahua,0.4
    Samaritan,0.4
    Sardinian,0.4
    Bolivian_Cochabamba,0.2
    Ethiopian_Amhara,0.2
    Ethiopian_Jew,0.2
    Ethiopian_Wolayta,0.2
    Ju_hoan_North,0.2
    Khanty,0.2
    Mansi,0.2
    Papuan,0.2
    Rendille,0.2
    Selkup,0.2
    Somali,0.2
    Tujia,0.2

    This is not even close to your 12.5% Dutch and 12.5% Swedish.

    If I extract 12.5% German, 12.5% Swedish and 25% Liguria then you get:
     

    [1] "distance%=3.0335"


    DigitalsEnglishPart


    German_East,45
    Italian_Lombardy,18.8
    Orcadian,12.6
    Spanish_Pais_Vasco,8
    Shetlandic,3.8
    Basque_French,3.6
    Italian_Liguria,2
    Turkish_Azer,1.2
    Ethiopian_Agaw,0.4
    Ogiek,0.4
    Sudanese,0.4
    Balochi,0.2
    Dinka,0.2
    Elmolo,0.2
    Ethiopian_Anuak,0.2
    Ethiopian_Ari,0.2
    Ethiopian_Ari_blacksmith,0.2
    Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator,0.2
    Ethiopian_Gumuz,0.2
    Ethiopian_Jew,0.2
    Ethiopian_Mursi,0.2
    Hadza,0.2
    Iraqw,0.2
    Ju_hoan_North,0.2
    Khanty,0.2
    Koinanbe,0.2
    Miao,0.2
    Nahua,0.2
    Papuan,0.2
    Quechua,0.2




    Not even close to English.

    If I extract 50% English, 12.5% German, 12.5% Swedish:
     

    [1] "distance%=7.3267"


    digitalsItalianPart


    Italian_Liguria,28.8
    Samaritan,18.4
    Albanian,16
    Turkish_Azer,15
    Sardinian,8.6
    Ogiek,3.2
    Masai,1.8
    Ethiopian_Mursi,1.2
    Iraqw,1
    Ethiopian_Anuak,0.8
    Sudanese,0.8
    Ju_hoan_North,0.6
    She,0.6
    Dinka,0.4
    Ethiopian_Ari_blacksmith,0.4
    Ethiopian_Gumuz,0.4
    Han_NChina,0.4
    Belarusian,0.2
    Ethiopian_Wolayta,0.2
    Hadza,0.2
    Ket,0.2
    Naxi,0.2
    Sengwer,0.2
    Somali,0.2
    Surui,0.2


    My verdict is that your English 50% and Italian 25% are real, but the rest looks more Slavic than Dutch-Swedish.
    I dont know what to say. Ive traced everyone on just about every branch of my family tree, so I know where they were from and this Slavic/Balkan thing I see would likely pop up at least once in any of the commercial tests I have taken. I know the Italian is real, the question is how much is there? I have seen ranges from 10% to 31% across all commercial tests OI have taken. There is also an English component that is consistent. The Swedish gets missed in all except 23 and Me (16%) and Ancestry only with the last update at 1%. Both get the region of Sweden correct though.

    English and Germanic Europe (French/German at 23andMe) also seem inflated to what I know, and I was willing to write it off if it was a one time thing but both 23 and Me and Ancestry say 25%-35% German, or French/German. The only Slavic that I would think would explain this is that Hungarian or Slovakian grandfather (5x) but that is so far back I dont think one guy would even influence this. That said, most Gedmatch calcs chow a Balkan component. Even Lukasz k36 report showed some. MyHeritage and FTDNA tests both have me at 12% East Europe but I wrote that off as outdated algorithms applying this to someone who is part NW Euro.

    Thanks for taking the time to run these. I appreciate the input. Im still struggling to wrap my head around this haha
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminŗ Italy

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  6. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    Okay, perhaps I misunderstood what it is you’re doing. Are you removing the populations from my coordinates?
    Very simple thing.
    I need:
    population1, percentage1
    population2, percentage2
    population3, percentage3


    percentage1+percentage2+percentage3 < 100

    I don't know the ancestries of people here. If you are sure that 50% of you is English_Cornwall, or maybe 25% of French_Brittany, then I can extract that part (of course I extract population average).
    The rest should then in nMonte run show to you its composition. The result depends on the accuracy of your input and G25 averages.
     
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  8. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Very simple thing.
    I need:
    population1, percentage1
    population2, percentage2
    population3, percentage3


    percentage1+percentage2+percentage3 < 100

    I don't know the ancestries of people here. If you are sure that 50% of you is English_Cornwall, or maybe 25% of French_Brittany, then I can extract that part (of course I extract population average).
    The rest should then in nMonte run show to you its composition. The result depends on the accuracy of your input and G25 averages.
    I see (said the blind man). Thanks for the explanation! Apparently, I was laboring under a misapprehension. ;-)
    Last edited by JMcB; 11-22-2019 at 09:10 PM.
    Paper Trail: 43.8% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA: 88.1% British Isles (59.7% English, 27% Scottish & 1.3% Irish), 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%), 4.4% Europe NW (Scandinavia) & 1.6% Europe East, (Mordovia).
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >A13252/YSEQ (circa 1630 AD).

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  10. #176
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    It would be interesting to see a divided version of my ancestral Indian and later admixed West Eurasian. The closest South Asian category I get when used in mixture is 40% Punjabi_Lahore and I am pretty sure the west Eurasian can be plotted as Greek as it includes both South Euro and West Asian.

    Would you subtract Punjabi Lahore once and then Greek out of my coordinations so we can see how it would turn out? Thanks

    PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12 ,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22 ,PC23,PC24,PC25
    RR_scaled,0.091058,0.057885,-0.078818,0.01938,-0.022773,0.015897,-0.00329,0.003923,0.020248,0.02041,-0.000487,-0.001349,0.000892,0.012937,-0.013843,-0.001856,0.011735,0.001774,0.003142,0.007379,-0.002121,-0.003462,-0.001972,-0.003374,-0.000838

    ,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
    RR,0.008,0.0057,-0.0209,0.006,-0.0074,0.0057,-0.0014,0.0017,0.0099,0.0112,-0.0003,-0.0009,0.0006,0.0094,-0.0102,-0.0014,0.009,0.0014,0.0025,0.0059,-0.0017,-0.0028,-0.0016,-0.0028,-0.0007
    33% Greek_Thessaloniki + 33% IraqiJew + 33% Punjabi @ 4.835

    Modern:


     
    fit: 2.4426,

    Greek_Crete: 51.67
    Gujarati: 38.33
    Iranian_Persian: 7.5
    Lithuanian: 2.5


    Ancient:

     
    fit": 1.7643

    DRAVIDIAN_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o: 32.5
    GRECO-ROMAN_Italy_Medieval_Collegno_o1: 17.5
    ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN_Balkans_IA: 15
    SLAVIC_Avar_Hungary_Szolad: 11.67
    LEVANTINE_Levant_LBN_MA_NE: 10.83
    ANATOLIAN_Anatolia_IA: 7.5
    ARIAN_PAK_Swat_Butkara_IA: 5

  11. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris000009 View Post
    It would be interesting to see a divided version of my ancestral Indian and later admixed West Eurasian. The closest South Asian category I get when used in mixture is 40% Punjabi_Lahore and I am pretty sure the west Eurasian can be plotted as Greek as it includes both South Euro and West Asian.

    Would you subtract Punjabi Lahore once and then Greek out of my coordinations so we can see how it would turn out? Thanks

    PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12 ,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22 ,PC23,PC24,PC25
    RR_scaled,0.091058,0.057885,-0.078818,0.01938,-0.022773,0.015897,-0.00329,0.003923,0.020248,0.02041,-0.000487,-0.001349,0.000892,0.012937,-0.013843,-0.001856,0.011735,0.001774,0.003142,0.007379,-0.002121,-0.003462,-0.001972,-0.003374,-0.000838

    ,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
    RR,0.008,0.0057,-0.0209,0.006,-0.0074,0.0057,-0.0014,0.0017,0.0099,0.0112,-0.0003,-0.0009,0.0006,0.0094,-0.0102,-0.0014,0.009,0.0014,0.0025,0.0059,-0.0017,-0.0028,-0.0016,-0.0028,-0.0007
    If I extract 40% of Lahore then you get for the rest of you (60%):

    [1] "distance%=2.0933"


    RR-Lahore


    Greek_Peloponnese,54.6
    Roma_Balkans,12
    Cypriot,9.6
    Greek_Kos,2.6
    Greek_Central_Anatolia,2
    Greek_Central_Macedonia,2
    Romaniote_Jew,2
    Samaritan,2
    Turkish_Trabzon,1.6
    Lebanese_Muslim,1.4
    Egyptian,1
    Lebanese_Christian,1
    Asur,0.6
    Georgian_Laz,0.6
    Roma_Porto,0.6
    BedouinA,0.4
    Bosnian,0.4
    Italian_Calabria,0.4
    Kurumba,0.4
    Santhal,0.4
    Aymara,0.2
    BedouinB,0.2
    Greek_Trabzon,0.2
    Ho,0.2
    Irula,0.2
    Jarawa,0.2
    Korwa,0.2
    Koryak,0.2
    Libyan,0.2
    Lithuanian_RA,0.2
    Lithuanian_VZ,0.2
    Macedonian,0.2
    Mala,0.2
    Malayan,0.2
    Moroccan,0.2
    Nivh,0.2
    Saharawi,0.2
    Sardinian,0.2
    Saudi,0.2
    Wichi,0.2
    Yemenite_Amran,0.2
    Yemenite_Dhamar,0.2




    It is visible from Roma percents that 40% is not enogh.
    After I extracted 50% of Lahore, then you got this (your other half):

    [1] "distance%=2.8323"


    RR-Lahore05


    Greek_Peloponnese,67.2
    Cypriot,8.4
    Greek_Kos,4.4
    Samaritan,3.2
    Romaniote_Jew,2.6
    Sardinian,1.8
    Greek_Central_Anatolia,1.4
    Greek_Central_Macedonia,1.4
    Turkish_Trabzon,1.4
    Lebanese_Christian,1.2
    Georgian_Laz,0.8
    Greek_Trabzon,0.8
    BedouinA,0.6
    Bosnian,0.6
    Egyptian,0.6
    Tunisian_Jew,0.6
    Yemenite_Dhamar,0.6
    Yemenite_Al_Jawf,0.4
    Yemenite_Ma'rib,0.4
    BedouinB,0.2
    Berber_Tunisia_Sen,0.2
    Ju_hoan_North,0.2
    Karaite_Egypt,0.2
    Karitiana,0.2
    Lebanese_Muslim,0.2
    Yemenite_Jew,0.2
    Yemenite_Mahra,0.2
     
    All simple calculations, maps and plots I make for free, but for more complicated maps I ask for a donation via Hidden Content PayPalHidden Content account

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  13. #178
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    I still say this model is considerably shifted North for European groups, particularly regionally mixed people.

  14. #179
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    America
    Ethnicity
    North & Ionian Seas
    Nationality
    American

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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    I dont know what to say. Ive traced everyone on just about every branch of my family tree, so I know where they were from and this Slavic/Balkan thing I see would likely pop up at least once in any of the commercial tests I have taken. I know the Italian is real, the question is how much is there? I have seen ranges from 10% to 31% across all commercial tests OI have taken. There is also an English component that is consistent. The Swedish gets missed in all except 23 and Me (16%) and Ancestry only with the last update at 1%. Both get the region of Sweden correct though.

    English and Germanic Europe (French/German at 23andMe) also seem inflated to what I know, and I was willing to write it off if it was a one time thing but both 23 and Me and Ancestry say 25%-35% German, or French/German. The only Slavic that I would think would explain this is that Hungarian or Slovakian grandfather (5x) but that is so far back I dont think one guy would even influence this. That said, most Gedmatch calcs chow a Balkan component. Even Lukasz k36 report showed some. MyHeritage and FTDNA tests both have me at 12% East Europe but I wrote that off as outdated algorithms applying this to someone who is part NW Euro.

    Thanks for taking the time to run these. I appreciate the input. Im still struggling to wrap my head around this haha
    there might be some validity to all that east leaning. I have a higher than expected West Asian reading and this model as well as some others shows a lean for the Caucuses with my data.

  15. #180
    Registered Users
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    1,187
    Sex
    Location
    Bay Area
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-BY14160
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c
    mtDNA (P)
    I1a1

    England Italy Sweden Netherlands
    I would venture a guess that he is using population averages, which for some groups consist of many peopleís data. I would say that this method, G25 in particular, lends itself to. Higher precision of accuracy. Since heís using all the pop averages, I donít think itís shifted one way or another, rather reflects whatís actually under the hood so to speak.
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminŗ Italy

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to digital_noise For This Useful Post:

     JerryS. (12-09-2019)

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