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Thread: Rumours of M269 hunters in north-central European Russia

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    Rumours of M269 hunters in north-central European Russia

    Iím wondering if the north-central Russian forest zone hunters which M269 David on Eurogenes has mentioned are from the Butovo culture. Itís flint technology links it to the Kunda type hunters on the Baltic where P297 has previously been located. Butovo is the most easterly and earliest European group to acquire pressure flakes micro blade technology though it is known much earlier in Siberia. If so then perhaps there is something to the idea that the pressure flaked microblades which spread across north-eastern and eastern Europe c 9000-7500BC are at least partly/in some places linked to P297. I used to think this was a fresh P297 wave of EHG from Siberia but another possibility is they were an Eastern or north-Eastem
    European group of hunters who acquired the flint technology from contact with Siberians around thr urals. Either way Iíve long though that if the Kunda/post-Swiderian hunters on the Baltic carried P297 then it was also likely that Butovo did. There are also smaller cultures between Butovo and Kunda which likely are the same group. http://www.quartaer.eu/pdfs/2010/2010_hartz.pdf

    Ultimately it looks to me that P297 hunters in both the Baltic, upper Volga and Samara sounds like it can only be explained my movement along the Volga system. Recall too that the environment drastically changed from 9000BC to 5000BC so displacement is likely

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    I tought he was refering to Usatovo.

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    How many skeletons did they recover from this culture? As far as I know they got a lot samples. I don't think any sub-neolithic culture could do it in such a quantity.
    Last edited by rob101; 11-05-2019 at 11:11 PM.

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    He seemed to be also referring to M269 hunters in what sounds like not too far from Moscow to me. I assume he means Mesolithic era. It’s no major shock to me though given that P297 hunters have been found in Latvia and Samara already that hunters in between that are also P297 (M269) have apparently been found. The Volga system spans a lot of the land between Samara and Latvia. According to yfull M269 SNP is over 13000 years old but all living M269 has a common ancestor only 6500 years ago. So they will be long extinct M269 lines in all probability. Perhaps changes in environment between 8000 and 6000BC droverh the hunters south down the Volga as the Mesolithic progressed. The forestation as the Boreal phase took hold must have had a huge impact on the environment of hunters who may have arrived when conditions were more open may have led to displacement

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    Well, if M269 was around during the Mesolithic it had to be in the bodies of some hunter-gatherers somewhere in that neighborhood.
     


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    Unless it's L51+, it's not all that meaningful is it? Some of the downstream groups like Z2103, or even just L23 (xZ2103) are found in later periods to the south, as are some of the more basal branches. While it's true Yamnaya might not be the smoking gun, we really need to see L51+ at an early date in either west or eastern Europe to really settle the score on this whole issue that has been nagging on for near decades.

    I'm curious though. Would these mesolithic hunters be Uralic speakers? If L51+ does popup so far in eastern Europe, it kind of makes me wonder on the whole red hair/pale skin link I see among some of these modern people of the region, and looking at the western dopplegangers in Britain/Ireland.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 11-06-2019 at 03:17 AM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
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    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    True it’s not likely relevant to L23 which is maybe 7000 years younger to M269 but it’s not all about the steppe IE issue. It’s still fascinating to know where our very remote ancestors lived long before language families like IE or Uralic existed. There were probably a myriad of very distantly related languages across all the R people’s in Eastern Europe and perhaps Siberia in the Mesolithic and Neolithic.

    It already seems clear that P297 was spread from Samara to Latvia in the Mesolithic. M269 is so old that there may have been pockets of it all across European Russia and adjacent, perhaps along the length of the Volga system. So these guys David seems to be referring to will be one M269 group but may by no means be the only one in European Russia. While sampling of hunters gatherers in Russia remains light and patchy our best way of understanding M269’s overall spread in c10000-5000BC is likely looking at which culture elsewhere have links to those where P297 has been proven to exist. Further west and south-west the early Mesolithic hunters in Ukraine and east-central Europe seem to be of a different origin cultural from the Butovo/Kunda type cultures. I’m not sure where the Lower reaches of the Volga stand culturally in the early Mesolithic. I think the last time I looked into that it wasn’t very clear. The Mesolithic (in the sense used by Western European archaeologists of post-Younger Dryas non farming) is c 4-5000 years in much of European Russia so a lot of movement over time is possible throughout that period. Recall too that in part of that era the Caspian Sea stretched well to the north and was very wide up to north south of the Samara and stretched in narrower form as far as the Kama so the Lower Volga and north Caspian area didn’t exist for a time
    Last edited by alan; 11-06-2019 at 01:34 PM.

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    There's too much speculation in this thread.

    There are indeed lots of rumors and leaks about new samples. Keep in mind that a good proportion of these cases are unlikely to be confirmed because they're not quite correct, or they involve low coverage sequences and/or remains that haven't yet been properly dated.

    However, the information that there are multiple cases of M269 in fairly high quality Eneolithic forager samples from the Upper Volga region is true. And, as far as I know, this is quite a special find, because no other contemporaneous or older cases of M269 have been found anywhere else yet. If you're wondering what these foragers are like, here's a clue.

    Chimp Baltic_EST_Narva RUS_Piedmont_En Yamnaya_RUS_Samara 0.0118 3.685

    Does it mean that M269 moved into the steppe from the forest zone in the northwest? I think so, but let's wait a few months and see how things turn out. In any case, the idea that M269 came from West or Central Asia is so wrong that it just looks funny now.

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    How far up the Volga are we talking about?
     


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