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Thread: Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Razib thought that it was rather resurgence of the rural locals after cities (where East Med influence had to be the strongest) died out:



    ^^^
    Rome's (city) population over time:

    In my neck of the woods cities were population sinks up until the second part of the 18th century.

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  3. #132
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    I just noticed that the Medieval sample R58 from Villa Magna, dated to 700 - 1500 CE (not radiocarbon dated), is classified as Z306, which is a downstream subclade of U106> Z381> Z156 (>Z306). Is his BAM file available?

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  5. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyro-Vlach View Post
    I went through the supplements and can't seem to find where it states that R116 is J-Z631. It is also listed as a genetic outlier, given an WHG classification.
    Not sure why to be honest. The haplogroup assignments are on table 2.

    Ftdna MyOrigins 2.0: 100% SE European

    23andme: 100% Balkan

    Geneplaza K25: 100% Greek-Albanian

    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  7. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    R835, Civitanova Marche, 27-300BCE (Imperial), belongs to J1-Z2331>Z2317* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2317/

    Was convinced it would have belonged to a downstream but has no calls at virtually all and is certainly negative for Z1884 and Y3081.
    Interesting, I also was convinced that it would have been positive for either Z1884 or Y3081. I wonder if the other J1 samples are positive for Z1884 or Y3081.
    Ftdna MyOrigins 2.0: 100% SE European

    23andme: 100% Balkan

    Geneplaza K25: 100% Greek-Albanian

    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  9. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Sample R435 Latin, Prenestini Tribe, 600 - 200 BCE, Iron Age/Roman Republic:
    is RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>U152/S28>BY3548>Z43/S366>Z144>Z29485
    Good find, a Z29485+ (BY3951) Latin! And only yesterday we got a new BigY breaking up the BY3961 block in two!
    Does R435 show anything of BY3966, BY3967, PH2982 vs. BY3961, CTS6389, PH1352, Z29486, Z30015?

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  11. #136
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    Sample R54, Villa Magna, 1280-1430CE(Late Medieval) is: J2b-L283>>Z1296>Y23094 (Y82533- Y36202- YP136- Y36194- BY124398-)

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y23094/
    Last edited by Trojet; 11-08-2019 at 11:26 AM.

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  13. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by traject View Post

    EDIT: Like a timeline provided:
    Attachment 34433 or customizable PCAs.
    I wonder why Iran/CHG admixture is so high during the imperial period while Levant_N/Maroco_N is so low?
    The empire should have included much of North Africa and Levant back then.

    Also how did Iran/CHG then reduce to the comparatively low levels of today? Was this a dilution process from elite Romans into the rural Italian populations that resulted to the levels of today via homogenization? Or was Iran/CHG on the evolutionary loosing side here?

    Steppe admixture appeared sometime between 3500-500 B.C via Bell Bakers (Celts?), reduced during the Roman era and increased again during the Germanic/barbaric invasions and the fall of the empire.

    What can be concluded is that migrants of Roman period were likely primary from Greek and Anatolian sources, people of related culture and language. Maybe even low Lenvant_N Phoenicans/Carthagians can be included in that package.
    Hence I contest that "cosmopolitan" nature of Rome concept, for that Levant_N levels would be higher (at least by post imperial period).

    Latins that need additional Iran/CHG admixture beside Steppe, while Etruscans are ok with two way EEF-Steppe, is another interesting detail to distinguish non-IE Etruscans and IE Latins. It also has implications of the Bell Beaker-IE issue, like the Basque/Iberians before.

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  15. #138
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    Gonna offer a really quick take before heading off to work:

    1) Basically I agree with Razib Khan's take here:
    The figure above summarizes the main clear dynamic: the period of cultural and genetic cosmopolitanism of the Imperial period turned out to be ephemeral. The authors express a bit of surprise that the cosmopolitanism of Roman genetics during the Imperial period seems to manifest itself in an ‘eastward’ shift, and hypothesize that this is due to the greater population density of the eastern provinces.
    ...
    That’s all to be expected. But what happened after the fall of Rome? The evidence above shows a western and northern shift. Though the proximal populations that contributed to this shift are somewhat different, overall the distal ancient components (e.g., “Neolithic”) return to frequencies that are closer to Iron Age Latium than the Roman Imperial phase. How did this happen?

    Ancient DNA is a great window into the past, but it needs to be synthesized with an understanding of historical and anthropological processes. The Rome of the 400s was still a massive city, only marginally off its imperial peak in terms of population. But the Rome of 600 A.D. was a city filled with emptiness. What happened? A combination of the wars of the 6th-century, which are recorded to have depopulated much of Italy, and the overall decentering of Rome from the Mediterranean system after the ending of the Western Empire, probably resulted in the inevitable contraction of the Eternal City.
    However, I think the migration in the immediate post-collapse came not from people further north in Lazio or Tuscany but to Rome's immediate south (Basso Lazio, Campania, Abruzzo, etc), which I'll explain further down.

    2) The disappearance of Eastern Med samples in Rome from the Imperial period to late antiquity pretty much confirm this: they died out during the collapse or left for greener pastures, perhaps eastward again to the new capital.

    3) I think the northern shift from the southern Italian-like Medieval samples to the more northern shifted Renaissance and modern samples could be explained by the dialect shift in Rome itself: Romanesco during the medieval period was more like Neapolitan, and then during later periods it underwent a shift towards Tuscan due to it a) being a prestige language during the Late Medieval/Renaissance, and b) a significant migration of Tuscans during this same period to Rome.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanesco_dialect#History
    The medieval Roman dialect belonged to the southern family of Italian dialects, and was thus much closer to the Neapolitan language than to the Florentine.[1][2] A typical example of Romanesco of that period is Vita di Cola di Rienzo ("Life of Cola di Rienzo"), written by an anonymous Roman during the 14th century.[1] Starting with the 16th century, the Roman dialect underwent a stronger and stronger influence from the Tuscan dialect (from which modern Italian derives) starting with the reigns of the two Medici popes (Leo X and Clement VII) and with the Sack of Rome in 1527, two events which provoked a large immigration from Tuscany.[3][4]
    Apologies if anyone else already made these points, I haven't had time to read the entire thread.

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  17. #139
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    Some of the samples mentioned in this thread so far:

    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  19. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Best DNA day of all time... One of the Latin tribe samples belongs to my somewhat low frequency subclade of L2 (PR5365)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Sample R437, Latin, Prenestini Tribe, 400 - 200 BCE, Iron Age/Roman Republic: RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>U152/S28>L2/S139>ZZ48>ZZ56>F10530>PR5365

    Sample R435 Latin, Prenestini Tribe, 600 - 200 BCE, Iron Age/Roman Republic:
    is RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>U152/S28>BY3548>Z43/S366>Z144>Z29485

    Sample R851 Latini, 800 - 500 BCE, Iron Age:
    RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>U152/S28>L2/S139>Z41150>DF90>F14641>~22237861>F29470
    Ciao Richard. I am very happy for you, but also a little envious ...

    Now you have to change your Ethnicity: Latin-Iberian ...
    Last edited by Acque agitate; 11-08-2019 at 12:03 PM.

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