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Thread: Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

  1. #1221
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    True.
    I think the same is valid for the steppe ratio in Valle d'Aosta. Probably due to the movement of alemannic speaking people from Switzerland ( the well known Walser)
    Not sure, I would assume also that these populations were already French-like, remember that there wasn't a border between Aosta and Savoy.

    Walser is a tiny phenomenon that wouldn't have affected all the region that's isolated and very mountainous.

    One of my great grandparents was an aostan by the way.

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  3. #1222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Yes, I understand that's an issue. There is also a third possibility that should be ruled out: many of the Greeks who settled the mainland south may have already had this type of ancestry prior to the Hellenistic era. If Phoenician trade into the Aegean involved gene flow, then Southern Aegeans (largely Doric) and maybe even some southern Ionians (in the Cyclades and Anatolia) might have already had Levantine ancestry in the Iron Age. If these already mixed Aegean Greeks then had a hand in settling Magna Graecia, well, there you go. The question is why didn't Levantine ancestry reach mainland Greece or Phocaea, but that problem also dogs the Hellenistic arrival theory. A passing over mainland Greece happened either way. Or, alternatively, it did reach mainland Greece but was diluted substantially by later migrations from within Greece. People in this thread were talking about "Iron Age" rural to urban resurgence in Rome as a possibility for Central Italy (even though many of us here don't think this is the case); maybe this could have happened in Greece, too, I don't know.

    I admit a Hellenistic origin is certainly a plausible source for this ancestry in the East Med, but I'm going to reserve judgment until we see samples from classical era Southern Italy and Aegean Greece. Especially given R850 (that Levantine-mixed Latin outlier from 650 BCE who consequently plots with East Meds).
    Maybe Greek Mainlanders of Hellenistic era were also mixed with Western Asian and/or Near Eastern peoples and were genetically closer to Greek Islanders and Greeks of Magna Grecia than what we think. The settlements of Slavs, Arvanites and Thracians/Vlachs could have reduced consideraby the West Asian genetic components but until nowadays we notice that most Greeks Mainlanders have a small percentage of such an ancestry.
    I am Greek Mainlander and I noticed that I am modelled much better as Magna Grecia of Imperial period + Slavic + Ancinet Northern Balkan rather using Myceneans/Empuries samples instead. If I use the latter I have to add a West Asian/Levantine reference which is about 10-15%.

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  5. #1223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Yes, a little of something Caucasus-like or Caucasus-derived and a very little Iberomaurasian rather than Levantine (only in Piedmont).
    Keep in mind that Global25 averages are not very accurate for northern Italy (in particular Italian_Piedmont and Italian_Liguria), which has a considerable internal difference.

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  7. #1224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetique View Post
    Not sure, I would assume also that these populations were already French-like, remember that there wasn't a border between Aosta and Savoy.

    Walser is a tiny phenomenon that wouldn't have affected all the region that's isolated and very mountainous.

    One of my great grandparents was an aostan by the way.
    Do you think the Cisalpine Gauls were genetically something like the modern Aostans and Savoyards, who both originally spoke Franco-Provencal, or something more southern French-like?

    According to Henri Hubert, the great French scholar of the Celtic world, the Insubres of western Lombardy were Aedui. (Eastern France between the Saone and Doubs rivers).

    The Cenomani, centred in Brescia and Verona, and possibly Bergamo too, a tribe noted as an Ally of the Roman Republic and provider of many allied troops to the republican Roman army, were Aulerci. (The Aulerci Cenomani came from the Le Mans area.)
    Last edited by Cascio; 01-24-2020 at 08:41 AM.

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  9. #1225
    Quote Originally Posted by xripkan View Post
    Maybe Greek Mainlanders of Hellenistic era were also mixed with Western Asian and/or Near Eastern peoples and were genetically closer to Greek Islanders and Greeks of Magna Grecia than what we think. The settlements of Slavs, Arvanites and Thracians/Vlachs could have reduced consideraby the West Asian genetic components but until nowadays we notice that most Greeks Mainlanders have a small percentage of such an ancestry.
    I am Greek Mainlander and I noticed that I am modelled much better as Magna Grecia of Imperial period + Slavic + Ancinet Northern Balkan rather using Myceneans/Empuries samples instead. If I use the latter I have to add a West Asian/Levantine reference which is about 10-15%.
    There is an increase of Natufian like ancestry in Greeks after the Hellenistic period. No matter what, you need 10-20% Ashkelon IA like ancestry to get the modern population.
    Last edited by Assiette mix; 01-24-2020 at 08:16 AM.

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  11. #1226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Do you think the Cisalpine Gauls were genetically something like the modern Aostans, who originally spoke Franco-Provencal, or something more southern French-like?
    I don't remember whom and when but someone here on AG wrote that Halstatt Bylany were southern- french like.

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  13. #1227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Keep in mind that Global25 averages are not very accurate for northern Italy (in particular Italian_Piedmont and Italian_Liguria), which has a considerable internal difference.
    I agree.
    If I am not mistaken their is only one(1) Ligurian sample.

    One question I find interesting is that I and my father score Spanish, Corsican, South French in many calculators and also G25 as a proxy for our Italian ancestry.
    Some of the Etruscan and Italic samples are more similar to these populations aswell. How can people still argue that the original Italic admixture is gone in modern Italians?
    Last edited by Nino90; 01-24-2020 at 12:00 PM.
    Hidden Content

    Eurogenes K13 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
    1. 63.1% Swedish + 36.9% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.93

    Dodecad K12b
    7. 66.4% Norwegian + 33.6% TSI30 (Metspalu) @ 3.24
    9. 60.6% Norwegian + 39.4% N_Italian @ 3.32

     

    Target: Nino
    Distance: 1.5423% / 0.01542331
    55.0 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    36.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    8.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA2

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  15. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assiette mix View Post
    There is an increase of Natufian like ancestry in Greeks after the Hellenistic period. No matter what, you need 10-20% Ashkelon IA like ancestry to get the modern population.
    How I am modelled with a Magna Grecian:

    Distance 0.01781386
    ITA_Rome_Imperial RMPR40 53.8
    RUS_Sunghir_MA 24.8
    UKR_CimmerianMJ12 21.4

    Using Mycenean or Empuries samples instead of RMPR40 the distance goes up to 0.028 or even more. It seems possible that during Hellenistic era Greeks mixed with Hellenized people from West Asia/Levant.

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  17. #1229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Do you think the Cisalpine Gauls were genetically something like the modern Aostans and Savoyards, who both originally spoke Franco-Provencal, or something more southern French-like?

    According to Henri Hubert, the great French scholar of the Celtic world, the Insubres of western Lombardy were Aedui. (Eastern France between the Saone and Doubs rivers).

    The Cenomani, centred in Brescia and Verona, and possibly Bergamo too, a tribe noted as an Ally of the Roman Republic and provider of many allied troops to the republican Roman army, were Aulerci. (The Aulerci Cenomani came from the Le Mans area.)
    If we go back very far in time....ancient scholars state the Iberians only lived between ( in modern markers ) Valencia Spain and the Rhone river France , the other side of the river where Ligurians

    The cenomani , IIRC came into Italy together circa 500BC with the Boii (romagna lands ) and Sennones tribe (marche lands)


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  19. #1230
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    Italic Scaled.

    I was just playing around on Vahaduo with various samples including the "Italic" one.

     
    Target: Swedish:Sweden9
    Distance: 1.6291% / 0.01629138
    53.8 DEU_MA
    42.2 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    4.0 Italic_scaled

    Target: Swedish:Sweden8
    Distance: 3.6484% / 0.03648404
    50.8 DEU_MA
    47.0 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    2.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

    Target: Swedish:Sweden7
    Distance: 2.2012% / 0.02201214
    59.0 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    28.6 DEU_MA
    12.4 Italic_scaled

    Target: Swedish:Sweden6
    Distance: 2.5748% / 0.02574831
    65.8 DEU_MA
    32.6 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    1.6 'ITA_Etruscan

    Target: Swedish:Sweden5
    Distance: 2.3339% / 0.02333947
    48.0 DEU_MA
    40.4 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    11.6 'ITA_Etruscan

    Target: Swedish:Sweden4
    Distance: 2.2139% / 0.02213923
    45.4 DEU_MA
    38.6 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    10.4 'ITA_Etruscan
    5.6 Italic_scaled

    Target: Swedish:Sweden3
    Distance: 2.4812% / 0.02481236
    77.8 DEU_MA
    19.6 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    2.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

    Target: Swedish:Sweden22
    Distance: 3.1720% / 0.03171964
    48.8 DEU_MA
    44.8 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    6.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

    Target: Swedish:Sweden21
    Distance: 2.7893% / 0.02789312
    93.8 DEU_MA
    6.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

    Target: Swedish:Sweden20
    Distance: 2.9451% / 0.02945080
    73.8 DEU_MA
    26.2 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse

    Target: Swedish:Sweden2
    Distance: 2.4829% / 0.02482879
    74.8 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    11.0 Italic_scaled
    6.8 DEU_MA
    5.2 ITA_Etruscan
    2.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

    Target: Swedish:Sweden19
    Distance: 3.1101% / 0.03110067
    68.4 DEU_MA
    26.4 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    5.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

    Target: Swedish:Sweden18
    Distance: 2.8986% / 0.02898568
    77.4 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    22.6 Italic_scaled

    Target: Swedish:Sweden17
    Distance: 3.3627% / 0.03362678
    68.8 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    21.2 Italic_scaled
    5.2 ITA_Etruscan
    4.8 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

    Target: Swedish:Sweden16
    Distance: 1.9930% / 0.01992981
    69.4 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    26.6 DEU_MA
    4.0 ITA_Etruscan

    Target: Swedish:Sweden15
    Distance: 3.7563% / 0.03756281
    59.2 DEU_MA
    33.6 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    7.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

    Target: Swedish:Sweden13
    Distance: 1.8259% / 0.01825933
    55.0 DEU_MA
    35.6 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    8.6 ITA_Etruscan
    0.8 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

    Target: Swedish:Sweden12
    Distance: 2.4381% / 0.02438066
    84.0 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    12.6 ITA_Etruscan
    3.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

    Target: Swedish:Sweden11
    Distance: 2.2116% / 0.02211586
    91.6 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    7.4 ITA_Etruscan
    1.0 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

    Target: Swedish:Sweden10
    Distance: 2.2672% / 0.02267154
    57.8 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    28.8 DEU_MA
    13.4 Italic_scaled

    Target: Swedish:Sweden1
    Distance: 2.4711% / 0.02471072
    76.2 DEU_MA
    23.4 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    0.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA


    I runned all the swedish samples and noticed that many scored Italic + Etruscan. I guess this just mean more Continental/Neolithic hotspots?

    Sorry if off topic
    Hidden Content

    Eurogenes K13 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
    1. 63.1% Swedish + 36.9% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.93

    Dodecad K12b
    7. 66.4% Norwegian + 33.6% TSI30 (Metspalu) @ 3.24
    9. 60.6% Norwegian + 39.4% N_Italian @ 3.32

     

    Target: Nino
    Distance: 1.5423% / 0.01542331
    55.0 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    36.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    8.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA2

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