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Thread: Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

  1. #1101
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    Enough with getting the discussion personalised, either people stop that or the team will have to intervene.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

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    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

    Ruderico

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  3. #1102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Why are people still a .jpg MS Paint image as a PCA plot, and calcs made for modern populations from almost a decade ago on ancient samples? I'm honestly baffled.
    A few reasons, maybe valid, maybe not.

    1. I have never found the K15 Oracle of much use, either on the calculator itself, or the PCA plot. However, I do find that test very useful in determining the relationships between individual samples. Because Greeks plot on a cline from the Balkans to Levant, and share their PCA space with only Southern Italians and Western Jews (as opposed to NW European ethnicities and their seemingly endless overlap) plotting them on a PCA has not failed me yet in determining Mainland vs. Aegean Island ancestry. There are clear spaces on the PCA for each of these groups, and some evidence of sub-structure between island groups. In short, I can use the PCA plot to understand how an individual Greek is genetically similar or different than other Greeks and surmise something of their regional heritage.

    2. When responding to people's questions, saying "Go buy G25" is only 1/2 of an answer. Yes, it is great advice to the person, but not everyone is going to do that. So long as the K15 plot isn't giving incorrect information, it is better to use it than leaving the person without an answer.

    3. Lastly, using the Vahaduo PCA tool, I was able to recreate that K15 PCA, and the various Greek groups still plotted in the same way overall. I took this to mean that the newer G25 tool confirmed the basic Balkan/Levant cline that Greeks fall on, and their relative positions on that cline. See below.

    Is this the right way to go about it? Is that K15 plot inherently flawed to the point where it should not be used? Did I create a incorrect PCA based on having an incorrect assumption about how the samples should plot because of K15? If so, please let me know. I don't want to use these tools incorrectly. Thanks.


  4. #1103
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    Its nice to see that balkanians and italians+ spanish are closest to the original romans.

    I wonder if its a coincidence Romania is named Romania or its name has to do with roman empire

  5. #1104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gee View Post
    Its nice to see that balkanians and italians+ spanish are closest to the original romans.

    I wonder if its a coincidence Romania is named Romania or its name has to do with roman empire
    there is actually only one 'original' roman in the entire set and the closest to just south italians


    but once we are able to copy and paste I10366 into vahaduo then there will be another 'original' roman along ofc. with more and more (early)republicans like R437

    there is however a clear (by add. iranian/levantine) altering from the 'original' romans to the imperial romans, but while the imperial was the era of migration it was not at all that of introgression as the transission/continuity from imperial to late-antiquity demonstrates; best guess is thus late republic, but thats something only samples from said period can reveal
    Last edited by alexfritz; 01-15-2020 at 04:45 PM.
    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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  7. #1105
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    there is actually only one 'original' roman in the entire set and the closest to just south italians


    but once we are able to copy and paste I10366 into vahaduo then there will be another 'original' roman along ofc. with more and more (early)republicans like R437

    there is however a clear (by add. iranian/levantine) altering from the 'original' romans to the imperial romans, but while the imperial was the era of migration it was not at all that of introgression as the transission/continuity from imperial to late-antiquity demonstrates; best guess is thus late republic, but thats something only samples from said period can reveal
    Who is this "original" Roman? What sample you mean?
    Hidden Content

    Eurogenes K13 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
    1. 63.1% Swedish + 36.9% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.93

    Dodecad K12b
    1. 87,89% Szolad3 + 12,11% CHV001_Chalmny_Varre_18th-19th @ 1,131
    7. 66.4% Norwegian + 33.6% TSI30 (Metspalu) @ 3.24


     

    Target: Nino
    Distance: 1.5423% / 0.01542331
    55.0 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    36.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    8.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA2


  8. #1106
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  10. #1107
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    I don't think there are "original Romans" in the paper. Maybe if we had a confirmed noble from 3/4 century BC actually buried in Rome...But maybe we will find diversity in that group too, who knows. From the 8 samples that we have from 650BC to 300BC (pre Republic, early Republic era) three are outliers, almost half of them, and they are all different. In addition to that, I don't think that these people called themself Roman when alive (maybe the two late Prenestini).
    Last edited by Ariel90; 01-15-2020 at 05:11 PM.

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  12. #1108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Who is this "original" Roman? What sample you mean?
    R437
    fact is that praeneste wasnt roman until the romans conqered it in 338BCE and that fact makes R437 being an actual roman from the republican era a good deal possible; but i reckon the upcoming paper(s) will have more republican era samples than sofar and it will be seen how stable an R437 profile is for the earlyroman/republican gpool; in that regard however i was told his uniparentals already reveal alot, and imo so does non-nuragic I10366 from roman-strata sardinia; but thats all future sofar its only one sample that is unamb. from the republican era and thats R437
    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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  14. #1109
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    The paper said they cannot speculate on the genetic origin of the Latins, because they did not implement Bronze-age samples in the analysis.
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  16. #1110
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    there is actually only one 'original' roman in the entire set and the closest to just south italians


    but once we are able to copy and paste I10366 into vahaduo then there will be another 'original' roman along ofc. with more and more (early)republicans like R437

    there is however a clear (by add. iranian/levantine) altering from the 'original' romans to the imperial romans, but while the imperial was the era of migration it was not at all that of introgression as the transission/continuity from imperial to late-antiquity demonstrates; best guess is thus late republic, but thats something only samples from said period can reveal
    I was about to argue with you about the other Latini, but now I see what you mean, we still don't have samples from the early Roman city-state. However, turning around and claiming the Iron Age Sardinian I10366 is a Roman is contrary to that very argument, no?
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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