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Thread: Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

  1. #1111
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    The paper said they cannot speculate on the genetic origin of the Latins, because they did not implement Bronze-age samples in the analysis.
    “To be a scientist is to be naive. We are so focused on our search for truth we fail to consider how few actually want us to find it. But it is always there whether we see it or not, whether we choose to or not. The truth doesn’t care about our needs or wants—it doesn’t care about our governments, our ideologies, our religions—to lie in wait for all time...Where I once would fear the cost of truth, now I only ask what is the cost of lies.”

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  3. #1112
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    there is actually only one 'original' roman in the entire set and the closest to just south italians


    but once we are able to copy and paste I10366 into vahaduo then there will be another 'original' roman along ofc. with more and more (early)republicans like R437

    there is however a clear (by add. iranian/levantine) altering from the 'original' romans to the imperial romans, but while the imperial was the era of migration it was not at all that of introgression as the transission/continuity from imperial to late-antiquity demonstrates; best guess is thus late republic, but thats something only samples from said period can reveal
    I was about to argue with you about the other Latini, but now I see what you mean, we still don't have samples from the early Roman city-state. However, turning around and claiming the Iron Age Sardinian I10366 is a Roman is contrary to that very argument, no?
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    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assiette mix View Post
    G25 is crap because it uses random samples whose ancestry has not been checked. Bergamo is the best representation of North Italians and it's clearly North shifted compared to Iron Age. We still need more samples though.

    If you have purchased G25, provide me your coords with detailed ancestry info. So we can use it for our upcoming G25 based platform.

    Anyone who is not satisfied with acadamic samples and wants better representation for their ethnicity is also welcomed.
    Turkish DNA Project:

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    I was about to argue with you about the other Latini, but now I see what you mean, we still don't have samples from the early Roman city-state. However, turning around and claiming the Iron Age Sardinian I10366 is a Roman is contrary to that very argument, no?
    they def. need better samples from a clearer less amb. context, sofar known is that I10366 overlaps the roman period in sardinia and there is no isotope data that claims she had to be born on said island so its in that range of historical context; but its the fact above all that she is not a native nor anything resembling a punic(from mallorca) that narrows it down alot, also her site adds to the roman context; but that bridge will be crossed with more republican samples and better provenance

    the latins sofar had alot of outliers or in other words whenever there was more than one sample from a preroman latin site there was an outlier(but not a migrant) with ashkelon_ia as the best proximate source for the outlying effect, so thats quite something for 50% of the preroman latins; and if you want it factchecked then the rutulian samples def. invite the whole aeneid to be rethought as something more real than not, but that all has little to do with the actual romans and def. not the meritorious romans of later, these ought to be best found within a roman context
    Last edited by alexfritz; 01-16-2020 at 12:05 AM.
    Geno2.0NG 51 SEurope 19 WCEurope 13 Scandinavia 5 AsiaMinor 4 EEurope 4 GB&Ireland 3 Arabia myOrigins 52 WCEurope 40 SEEurope 5 BritishIsles 3 WMiddleEast DNA.Land 49 NWEuropean 27 SEuropean 13 MedIslander 11 Sardinian myHeritage 51.8 NWEuropean 33.2 Italian 7.9 Greek&SouthItalian 7.1 Balkan gencove 29 NItaly 19 EMed 15 NBritishIsles 12 SWEurope 10 NCEurope 9 Scandinavia 6 NEEurope K29GenePlaza 54.4 NWEurope 37.6 Greek/Albania 5.6 WAsian 2.4 SWAsia

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  8. #1115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    I don't think there are "original Romans" in the paper. Maybe if we had a confirmed noble from 3/4 century BC actually buried in Rome...But maybe we will find diversity in that group too, who knows. From the 8 samples that we have from 650BC to 300BC (pre Republic, early Republic era) three are outliers, almost half of them, and they are all different. In addition to that, I don't think that these people called themself Roman when alive (maybe the two late Prenestini).
    Maybe you are right....the etruscans ruled roman lands for at least 8 generations around 650bc.....so chances of etruscan-roman mixing is high


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+ )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Yes, there are at least two papers/preprints arguing this.

    Even the least mixed Sardinians that were used in the HGDP project have some East Med and even steppe ancestry, so they should cluster east of early West Anatolian and European farmers, unless the PCA is heavily biased.
    Interesting. Yes, the Sardinians in the G25 data sheet do show small amounts of CHG/IranN and steppe ancestry, so it could be that they received something Mycenaean like. But they also have a good amount of WHG related ancestry (though not as much as Basques. I would think that this would shift them west from Barcin_N, no?

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    My roman sample PCA plot using All roman samples.

    all are ancient except R55 which is medieval




    and my Longobard samples PCA plot with all longobards plus the 4 x ancient Dalmatians

    Last edited by vettor; 01-16-2020 at 03:22 AM.


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  14. #1118
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    they def. need better samples from a clearer less amb. context, sofar known is that I10366 overlaps the roman period in sardinia and there is no isotope data that claims she had to be born on said island so its in that range of historical context; but its the fact above all that she is not a native nor anything resembling a punic(from mallorca) that narrows it down alot, also her site adds to the roman context; but that bridge will be crossed with more republican samples and better provenance

    the latins sofar had alot of outliers or in other words whenever there was more than one sample from a preroman latin site there was an outlier(but not a migrant) with ashkelon_ia as the best proximate source for the outlying effect, so thats quite something for 50% of the preroman latins; and if you want it factchecked then the rutulian samples def. invite the whole aeneid to be rethought as something more real than not, but that all has little to do with the actual romans and def. not the meritorious romans of later, these ought to be best found within a roman context
    I thought the Rutilian elite Etruscan R850 was originally from Crete , but settled in etruscan lands before moving south into modern Lazio ...............the paper IIRC stated that Rutulians are etruscan and not Roman ......

    I really think , we will never get a pure Roman sample.....best we can get is a Roman-Etruscan mix or maybe a Roman-Sabine mix


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  15. #1119
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    So I tried to do a PCA with Global 25 and one with Dodecad k12b using similar modern Italians and IA Italy samples. G25 and K12b are very similar overall, the structure of the PCA looks at first remarkably close, but it's not identical. Maybe the biggest difference is that French Corsica is probably too close to mainlanders in K12b.
    https://imgur.com/a/NXL8s0i
    Last edited by Ariel90; 01-16-2020 at 03:01 PM.

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  17. #1120
    Quote Originally Posted by Leper View Post
    If you have purchased G25, provide me your coords with detailed ancestry info. So we can use it for our upcoming G25 based platform.

    Anyone who is not satisfied with acadamic samples and wants better representation for their ethnicity is also welcomed.
    I hope this is an ironic answer...

    Nowhere I said that I am not satisfied with academic samples. Instead the clear fact that there is such a significant difference between academic samples and G25 samples, tell us a lot about the reliability of the latter.

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