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Thread: Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

  1. #941
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Just check the g25 map thread. Its quite clear italics and etruscans are nearly identical to modern Italians and some to Spanish and South French.

    The immigrants who plot with north africans and syrians etc did not leave much admixture in central or north Italy.
    Yes I totally believe that.

    Romans plotted like northern italians, and it's even more clear when you see I believe the proto-villanovian sample.

    That doesn't mean that their ancestry composition was the same but there are clear genetical ties.

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  3. #942
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    -Incredibly, Calabrians (only 3 samples in the official spreadsheet, notwithstanding the one in "Italian_South") score zero Germanic here. I doubt it's actually non-existent, but it must be very low. They've also got the most Imperial Roman ancestry by far. Their 4% North African score should pique Sikeliot's interest. In any case, Calabrians are so Mediterranean it would make a Mycenaean blush.
    The G25 of Calabria region isn't representative. 2 weeks ago I've found a result from a calabrian guy with 10% English (East Anglia), 10km from Mileto, an important city for Normans (this outlier is a proof that having so low samples can't give an accurate vision). I don't believe at all that Calabria neither S.Italy is uniform, the North African score indicate that they are from Reggio Calabria/Vibo Valentia provinces.

    The Italian_South average is as well from Reggio. Nothing coming from Cosenza or regions like that.
    Last edited by Genetique; 12-09-2019 at 09:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Just check the g25 map thread. Its quite clear italics and etruscans are nearly identical to modern Italians and some to Spanish and South French.

    The immigrants who plot with north africans and syrians etc did not leave much admixture in central or north Italy.
    Even if (like in Rome) immigrants who plotted with North Africans and Syrians did also affect the Admixture levels of imperial era central & North Italy (but to a lesser extent) wouldn’t similarly the later post Roman late antiquity/medieval North euro admixture invasions dilute/lower this admixture level back down and mask any temporal imperial mena elevation that had occurred?
    Last edited by Claudio; 12-10-2019 at 08:14 PM.

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    Interestingly, samples R7 (Grotta Continenza; 8821-8642 calBCE) and R15 (Grotta Continenza; 7284-7065 calBCE) have been added to YFull, where they appear to belong to a very basal branch of I-M223. I wonder if these samples will redefine this SNP/subclade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Imperial Romans (East Mediterranean Profile):
    R39 (Isola Sacra) - 99 CE
    R81 (Viale Rossini, City of Rome) - 100 CE
    R113 (Via Paisiello, City of Rome) - 100 CE
    R114 (Via Paisiello, City of Rome) - 100 CE
    R115 (Via Paisiello, City of Rome) - 100 CE
    R131 (Via Paisiello, City of Rome) - 100 CE
    R436 (Palestrina Antina) - 100 CE
    R835 (Civitanova Marche) - 137 CE
    R836 (Civitanova Marche) - 137 CE
    R1548 (Monterotondo) - 137 CE
    R1549 (Monterotondo) - 137 CE
    R123 (Casale del Dolce) - 145 CE
    R50 (Centocelle, City of Rome) - 190 CE
    R49 (Centocelle, City of Rome) - 200 CE
    R51 (Centocelle, City of Rome) - 200 CE
    R69 (ANAS, City of Rome) - 200 CE
    R73 (ANAS, City of Rome) - 200 CE
    R125 (Casale del Dolce) - 200 CE
    R40 (Isola Sacra) - 201 CE
    R41 (Isola Sacra) - 201 CE
    R45 (Isola Sacra) - 201 CE
    R1543 (Mazzano Romano) - 201 CE
    R1544 (Mazzano Romano) - 201 CE
    R47 (Centocelle, City of Rome) - 283 CE

    By far the largest group of Imperial Roman samples clusters with modern Southern Italians, Greek Islanders, and Western Jews. We call this profile "East Mediterranean." This should be distinguished from the "old East Meds" of the Aegean Bronze Age: Minoans and Mycenaeans. The principal difference between the Bronze Age East Meds (and evidently classical Greeks) and modern-type East Meds is a substantial increase of Near Eastern ancestry seen in the latter, seemingly involving both the Levant and Anatolia (and maybe Armenia).

    The origin/timing of this extra Near Eastern admixture is a perennial topic of discussion on this forum. Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Hellenized/Romanized MENAs-- who done it? Who knows; it's probably not a simple story, as the ancestors of modern East Meds could have experienced the bulk of their Near Eastern admixture at different times and from different sources. Whether significant portions of the Near East stuff first arrived in Southern Europe during the Iron Age, Hellenistic/Roman Republic era, or Imperial Roman era is so far unresolved, though there is no shortage of theories. We at least have an upper and lower bound: Natufian-bearing Near Eastern ancestry is negligible to non-existent in Neolithic Italy and Bronze Age Greece, but is absolutely pervasive in Central Italy by the Roman era. A few Bronze Age Sicilians from Fernandes et al show signs of CHG/Iran Neo, but no Natufian, so the Near Eastern ancestry we're interested in here almost certainly postdates Bronze Age Italy as well. I speculate it was well-represented in coastal Southern Italy and Sicily before the Imperial era, and the presence of some Near East/North African-mixed outliers in Iron Age Central Italy attest to this possibility. In any case, assimilation of Magna Graecians by the Romans probably played a crucial role in spreading the East Med profile to Central Italy.

    Distances below. A few of the samples show closest distances to Western Jews, but that might just be coincidental. Or maybe there is indeed a Jew in the midst...
     


    On West Eurasian PCA, in aqua:
     


    Vahaduo models with basic and then proximate components below. There are two proximate models shown below; both assume a Roman era Levantine-like source for the Levantine admixture, as opposed to an Ashkelon IA2-like source (which might have come with Phoenicians). One of the models omits the Italic IA average (outliers excluded!) while the other includes the average. I didn't bother including medieval Northern European sources here (needed to model many of the modern East Meds) because the focus is on the Roman samples:
     




    I should note that the dates for the Levant-shifted Imperial samples - 99CE then 137 CE correlate way too much in my head with the the two Jewish rebellions which were put down - first one in 73, second one in 135, which was accompanied with the mass enslavement of Judean Jews.

    It might simply be an accident... I mean what are the odds right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I should note that the dates for the Levant-shifted Imperial samples - 99CE then 137 CE correlate way too much in my head with the the two Jewish rebellions which were put down - first one in 73, second one in 135, which was accompanied with the mass enslavement of Judean Jews.

    It might simply be an accident... I mean what are the odds right?
    Maybe about the same as the carbon dating range (332-419 AD) of "Northerner" RMPR31's burial at the Mausoleo overlapping very neatly with the date of its plunder by Alaric's forces in 410 AD? Coincidence?
    Last edited by Dewsloth; 12-12-2019 at 11:08 PM.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 (S17075-)

    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I should note that the dates for the Levant-shifted Imperial samples - 99CE then 137 CE correlate way too much in my head with the the two Jewish rebellions which were put down - first one in 73, second one in 135, which was accompanied with the mass enslavement of Judean Jews.

    It might simply be an accident... I mean what are the odds right?
    apart from the fact that the enslaved jews, in historic sources, quantified as a 100k and brought to sicily, in that consequence what happened to the 150k cimbrian slaves or the 200k slaves that joined spartacus and wanted to '... march north into their former homelands' let alone the 1mio gauls that acc. to appian were dragged into italy? in like consequence of the romans intermingling with their slaves roman italy wouldbe the most celtic place on earth, and yet it clearly isnt

    while levantine introgression occ. as early as the iron age(with R850 being a parade example of intrgression not migration) the main source is def. later, but the odds for it being slaves are quite high when consulting a history book
    Last edited by alexfritz; 12-13-2019 at 09:39 AM.
    Geno2.0NG 51 SEurope 19 WCEurope 13 Scandinavia 5 AsiaMinor 4 EEurope 4 GB&Ireland 3 Arabia myOrigins 52 WCEurope 40 SEEurope 5 BritishIsles 3 WMiddleEast DNA.Land 49 NWEuropean 27 SEuropean 13 MedIslander 11 Sardinian myHeritage 51.8 NWEuropean 33.2 Italian 7.9 Greek&SouthItalian 7.1 Balkan gencove 29 NItaly 19 EMed 15 NBritishIsles 12 SWEurope 10 NCEurope 9 Scandinavia 6 NEEurope K29GenePlaza 54.4 NWEurope 37.6 Greek/Albania 5.6 WAsian 2.4 SWAsia

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    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....449-gt-BY7449*

    Hi, how are you?

    Can you go through this thread and comment?

    Thanks in advance.

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    If you ask historians about what fraction of slaves in Rome was "non European" the answer will be obvious. As alexfritz pointed about, Latium will be the most Celtic place in Europe if we go by historical sources. The problem here is simple. Are we overestimating the demographic impact of slaves? Did slaves even survived the fall of the Roman Empire? I think we often ignore that there was movement of free people in the Roman Empire, and the Greek speaking world was far richer and more in line with Roman "capitalism" that the rest of Europe that obviously was in a different era of cultural development. One of the theory for the east-med admixture in Italy that was popular here a while back was about Christians coming from Levantine and Armenian communities, well, that obviously isn't the case. Since the east med admixture appears to be from late republic or early imperial period, and there was an influx of European individuals in the later periods. I'm personally betting on Jews, Anatolian Greeks and economic migrants being responsible for the East-Med admixture, or maybe we are wrong about Southern Italy/Sicily in the Iron age being similar to central/Northern Italy but it's hard to say with no samples from the region (such a shame). Regardless I think that overall it's more likely that the samples tested in the paper are actually free citizen and not slaves. You will think that proper burials were reserved mostly for free citizen, and many of the places used in the paper are actual catacombs, crypts or houses and not mass graves. But, I think it will be instering to test the remains of people in richer burials, and sarcophagi that still have remains inside. I know of many examples that could be used.
    Last edited by Ariel90; 12-13-2019 at 10:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    If you ask historians about what fraction of slaves in Rome was "non European" the answer will be obvious. As alexfritz pointed about, Latium will be the most Celtic place in Europe if we go by historical sources. The problem here is simple. Are we overestimating the demographic impact of slaves? Did slaves even survived the fall of the Roman Empire? Also we have to consider that there were movement of free people in the Roman Empire, and the Greek speaking world was far richer and more in line with Roman "capitalism" that the rest of Europe that obviously was in a different era of cultural development. One of the theory for the east-med admixture in Italy that was popular here a while back was about Christians coming from Levantine and Armenian communities, well, that obviously isn't the case. Since the east med admixture appears to be from late republic or early imperial period, and there was an influx of European individuals in the later periods. I'm personally betting on Jews, Anatolian Greeks and economic migrants being responsible for the East-Med admixture, or maybe we are wrong about Southern Italy/Sicily in the Iron age being similar to central/Northern Italy but it's hard to say with no samples from the region (such a shame). Regardless I think that overall it's more likely that the samples tested in the paper are actually free citizen and not slaves. You will think that proper burials were reserved mostly for free citizen, and many of the places used in the paper are actual catacombs, crypts or houses and not mass graves. But, I think it will be instering to test the remains of people in richer burials, and sarcophagi that still have remains inside. I know of many examples that could be used.
    Free citizens included many reasonably or very prosperous freedmen who were more likely to be properly buried than the free poor.
    When the free poor died they were often thrown into unmarked pits.
    Last edited by Cascio; 12-13-2019 at 06:12 PM.

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