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Thread: Origin of Ice-Europeans and WHG

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    Origin of Ice-Europeans and WHG

    Some say that there was deep split between Upper Paleolithic Europeans and Mesolithic Europeans/WHG/UHG. Although there are people who say that Villabruna cluster be just a mixture of Gravettian and ANE and I have to admit, it tempting such this model accept because WHG has phenotypic characteristics we should associate with a people who survived in the Harsh Ice age climate of Europe (such as Blue eyes). I have a hard time believing light eyes evolved in a West Asia Refugium (although the climate of Iranian plateau and Inner/Eastern Anatolia was cold in the last glacial maximum). But how do explain the occurrence of Villabruna related ancestry in the 36,000-23,000 kya Vestonice cluster/Gravettians if Villabruna was just a mixed epi-paleolithic component of ANE+Gravettian? Therefore there is another hypothesis which states that WHG belongs to a separate 'Common West Eurasian' group (a clade) that separated from Paleo-Europeans (Sunghir, Gravettians, Vestonice cluster etc) long ago and came from West Asia despite the fact it that lacked Basal Eurasian (or perhaps it came from epigravettians Balkan refugium). Currently I hold the view that there was deep split in Early West Eurasians that form two major clade. One clade is the Kostenki/Sunghir clade (call it KS-clade) that was ancestral to Ancient North Siberians (ANS-Yana), the Non East Eurasian Ancestry of ANE, the bulk of the Gravettian/Vestonice genepool in Europe.

    The Common west Eurasians then began to mix with the KS clade around 30,000 kya to form a genetically distinct Hunter gatherer population called the Vestonice cluster. This Vestonice population was responsible for the blooming the gravattian culture in Ice age Europe but they could not survive increasingly harsh condition of the last glacial maximum around 25,000-20,000 and were subsequently replacement by another genetically distinct Paleo-Europeans population called the Magdelanian and the Solutreans (who were also a KS-clade+Common West Eurasian mix but in different ratio compared to the Vestonice/Gravettians and have a resurgent affinity to GoyetQ). But even the Magdelanians could not last long in the changing environment of the Epi-Palaeolithic and were subsequently replaced by the Mesolithic WHG (except in mixed form in Iberia). What makes Mesolithic Hunter gatherers different from Palaeolithic gatherers is that there was a replacement of the KS-clade+Common West Eurasian mix (Vestonice/Magdelanian/Solutreans) by a Mesolithic population called the Villabruna cluster (WHG) which is almost 90% Common West Eurasian. WHG (Cheddar man's people) is probably 90% Common west Eurasian and 10% ANE. Why did the Common West Eurasians out compete the Vestonice/El miron? I have no idea, since they are both Hunter gatherers. Probably Hunting strategy or ANE-related technology such as pressure point technology although I can't any large scale technological change in this period.

    So is my assesment and hypothesis correct?

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    Was it not because they were the first bearers of bow and arrows in Europe that WHG replaced previous Europeans?
    Last edited by jose luis; 01-10-2020 at 05:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jose luis View Post
    Was it not because they were the first bearers of bow and arrows in Europe that WHG replaced previous Europeans?
    I never heard of this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diictodon View Post
    Why did the Common West Eurasians out compete the Vestonice/El miron?
    I tend to think that the Maria Laach eruption plus the Younger Dryas did it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    I tend to think that the Maria Laach eruption plus the Younger Dryas did it.
    Interesting. What material culture did the WHG pocess that outer HG lacked? Also do you agree with the premise that the Villabruna cluster be just a mixture of Gravettian and ANE or does WHG belongs to a separate 'Common West Eurasian' group (a clade) that separated from Paleo-Europeans (Sunghir, Gravettians, Vestonice cluster etc)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diictodon View Post
    Interesting. What material culture did the WHG pocess that outer HG lacked? Also do you agree with the premise that the Villabruna cluster be just a mixture of Gravettian and ANE or does WHG belongs to a separate 'Common West Eurasian' group (a clade) that separated from Paleo-Europeans (Sunghir, Gravettians, Vestonice cluster etc)?
    My point of view: Villabruna = Gravettian + something related to Dzudzuana + a tad ANE. Also a tad Magdalenian is possible as El Miron has already WHG admixture and was hardly after the LGM.

    After the Laachersee eruption all kind of reindeer hunter groups pop up. What the Dzudzuana paper showed was that Baltic HG's, who likely originate from one of such cultures called Swiderian, had an extra 5th El Miron. Reindeer was one of the favorite game of Magdalenians.

    EDIT: the reason I don't think that WHG/"Common West Eurasian" existed before the LGM is that it would be the only group surviving practically unadmixted, but we don't see it in any pre-LGM sample. Dzudzuana is pre-LGM but has a third Basal Eurasian. So anything from that part of the world would have introduced Basal Eurasian in WHG.
    Last edited by epoch; 01-10-2020 at 05:33 PM.

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    When the villabruna paper came out, the explanation (excuse) for population substitution was that previous Europeans could not exploit the new biomes that came with climate change while the WHG were used to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jose luis View Post
    When the villabruna paper came out, the explanation (excuse) for population substitution was that previous Europeans could not exploit the new biomes that came with climate change while the WHG were used to them.
    Is that in Fu et al? I don't remember seeing this in that paper. Or are you referring to another paper?

    EDIT: Ah, you mean the other ice age paper by Cosimo Posth

    https://www.csmonitor.com/Science/20...climate-change
    Last edited by epoch; 01-10-2020 at 07:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    My point of view: Villabruna = Gravettian + something related to Dzudzuana + a tad ANE. Also a tad Magdalenian is possible as El Miron has already WHG admixture and was hardly after the LGM.

    After the Laachersee eruption all kind of reindeer hunter groups pop up. What the Dzudzuana paper showed was that Baltic HG's, who likely originate from one of such cultures called Swiderian, had an extra 5th El Miron. Reindeer was one of the favorite game of Magdalenians.

    EDIT: the reason I don't think that WHG/"Common West Eurasian" existed before the LGM is that it would be the only group surviving practically unadmixted, but we don't see it in any pre-LGM sample. Dzudzuana is pre-LGM but has a third Basal Eurasian. So anything from that part of the world would have introduced Basal Eurasian in WHG.
    Yes, the problem with Dzudzuana lies the fact that they carried an 'UGH' component that was 2/3 of their genome. UHG seems very Villabruna-like, so where did that originate from? The Levantine Aurignacian? That's between 40-26,000 kya which is a long way off the end of LGM. Can you explain to me what population contributed 35.711.3% ancestry to UP European hunter gatherers related to Sunghir (Vestonice cluster?) and 60.611.3% to El Miron Cluster in Qu Fu 2016 paper if Villabruna was just a mixed epi-paleolithic component of ANE+Gravettian? What do you mean "something related to Dzudzuana"? You mean a ghost UHG that is unadmixed that lurked somewhere in Europe without the basal? How is that different from I was proposing (i.e. an West Eurasian HG that contributed ancestry to both PaleoEuropeans and Near Easterners)?

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    Is the "something related to Dzudzuana" population the ghost population that contributed to Vestonice and El miron in Qu Fu?

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