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Thread: Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

  1. #351
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    R110; 400-600 AD; Crypta Balbi; Late Antiquity; I1-Z63>BY151>FGC81364>S2078>S2077>Y2245>Y7234

    This was a tricky one, no calls at Z63, BY151 and FGC81364 levels, then FGC9506+ at S2078 level and Y4102/FGC9504+ at S2077 level. Then again no calls at Y2245 level, and then all 6 derived SNPs at Y7234 level:

    Y7234/FGC14479+ C>T (1 read)

    Y7235/FGC14480+ C>T (1 read)

    FT72052+ C>T (1 read)

    Y7510/FGC14490+ G>A (1 read)

    Y7511/FGC14485+ C>G (1 read)

    Y7239/FGC14497+ G>A (2 reads)

    No calls at Y7666 level, and 7 ancestral SNPs at Y7663 level.

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  3. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Well, Bronze Age Armenians were not that Near Eastern, they had an amount of Steppe ancestry ranging from 21 to 27%. As for Anatolia_IA, the two samples that make up that average are actually modern Anatolian Turks. To better analyze the Italic samples, we would need the coordinates.
    Aren't modern Anatolian Greeks like Anatolian Bronze Age+little steppe? Iron Age Anatolians couldn't be that diffferent.

  4. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    R110; 400-600 AD; Crypta Balbi; Late Antiquity; I1-Z63>BY151>FGC81364>S2078>S2077>Y2245>Y7234

    This was a tricky one, no calls at Z63, BY151 and FGC81364 levels, then FGC9506+ at S2078 level and Y4102/FGC9504+ at S2077 level. Then again no calls at Y2245 level, and then all 6 derived SNPs at Y7234 level:

    Y7234/FGC14479+ C>T (1 read)

    Y7235/FGC14480+ C>T (1 read)

    FT72052+ C>T (1 read)

    Y7510/FGC14490+ G>A (1 read)

    Y7511/FGC14485+ C>G (1 read)

    Y7239/FGC14497+ G>A (2 reads)

    No calls at Y7666 level, and 7 ancestral SNPs at Y7663 level.
    Doesn't appear to be the first Lombard associated sample to be Z63 either. CL63 from the Collegno paper is I-Y2245. Perhaps a familial contingent of Lombards (or an associated group, Gepid, etc) brought this lineage to Italy?

  5. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    Could someone post the links to the BAM files so I can have a look? I want to look at the mtDNA markers for the two Mesolithic U5b and the U8b samples..
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERP115266

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  7. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    The reason why I don't think modern Central Italians are just a mix of Northern European and Southern Italian populations is because these two are both less Neolithic than modern central Italians. Of course there will have been a Northern European contribution, I do not doubt it, but this does not fully explain the genetics of Central Italians. It may also be that in addition to a hypothetical Northern European/South Italian mix, there have been migrations from Northern Italy to the centre that have contributed to forming Central Italians. A last hypothesis is the "rural" one, that is to say that the oriental migrations of the republican and imperial age did concern the rural areas, but to a lesser extent than the cities, thus forming the Central Italians. It seems strange to me, however, that among 127 samples, not one resembles them.
    In general, this is true, IA Italians, Late Antiquity Italians and some high steppe groups, such as Celts and Germanics, are probably all involved in the creation of the modern Italian cline.

    A hint for those who want to model this: etruscans and IA Italics as far south as Molise and Campania can be closely proxied by Vatya culture samples from Hungary, try the following combination: RISE 483, 247, 480, 484. The cluster of a coupla Iron Age Italians just southeast of Spanish from this paper are also a good proxy. In general, its very difficult to claim that there is no impact of Late Antiquity Romans on modern Italians given that even modern Central Italians (Tuscan, Marche, Umbrians) are actually slightly closer to Imperial Romans than they are to IA Italics based on PCA distances.

    A general comment: I see a lot of points about how urban areas tend to suffer disproportionately from sociopolitical disasters, but we also have to talk about the converse: that the Italian countryside was severely hollowed out by urbanization and massive agricultural inequalities when Rome was prosperous. The very stable sociopolitical system and rapid development of commodity markets led to concentration of farmland into gigantic latifundia run as commercial businesses staffed by management and slaves of Eastern Mediterranean origin. The Italian soldier-peasant class, owners of family farms, steadily entered into indebtedness to rich landowners even in the Republican period, and were eventually displaced and landless, which led to the continuous migration of free peasants into cities. Over the course of multiple centuries the countryside of Italy was transformed dramatically, by the time of the Gracchi there was already widespread lamenting about how much of it was commercially managed with very low population density and had become poor recruiting grounds for the Roman military.

    The gradual replacement of freeholding farmsteads, with probably a vigorous family and social life, by gigantic villas run by slaves according to economic principles, is also well known in Roman landscape archaeology as something that happened all across the Italian peninsula. The Romans had perhaps some inkling about the long-term demographic impact of their socioeconomic system, but since we're talking about multigenerational changes in all likelihood they could not know the final magnitude of such change over multiple centuries.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 11-09-2019 at 09:46 PM.
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  9. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    R850 BCE:650
    R851 BCE:650
    R1021 BCE:650
    R473 BCE:650
    R474 BCE:650
    R475 BCE:650
    R435 BCE:400
    R437 BCE:300

    ^^^ All of these IA-Republican samples could potentially have East Mediterranean admixture, but it's more likely that R437, which is dated to 300 BCE, or the beginning of the 3rd century BCE, would have such admixture than the other earlier ones. And indeed, out of all the samples from the mid-7th century BCE, only one, R850, has East Mediterranean admixture, while "all" of the samples from the beginning of the 3rd century BCE onward appear to have such admixture:

    "
    two individuals from Latin sites (R437 and R850) can be modeled as a mixture between
    local people and an ancient Near Eastern
    population (best approximated by Bronze Age
    Armenian or Iron Age Anatolian; tables S17
    and S18)."

    I know it's a weak argument, since in this case, N=1 when it comes to 3rd century BCE Roman samples, but I would bet my money that if we had 6 samples dated to that period, we would see many more of them plotted like R437.

    R475 is an Etruscan sample btw:

    "An Etruscan individual (R475)"
    R850 sample has many snp which the Neolithic T samples from Kardorf Germany samples have and there are three samples there.
    My guess is that sample plus the R1b ones are all from LBK Central Europe


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  10. #357
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    R53; 1280-1430 AD; Villa Magna; Medieval; E1b1b-L19>PF2431>Z21068>PF2438>Y10541>Y10561>pre-FGC19010 (3 derived, 8 ancestral SNPs)

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  12. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Doesn't appear to be the first Lombard associated sample to be Z63 either. CL63 from the Collegno paper is I-Y2245. Perhaps a familial contingent of Lombards (or an associated group, Gepid, etc) brought this lineage to Italy?
    Gepids are Ostrogoths and not Lombard........Ostrogoths capital in Italy was ravenna


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  13. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Gepids are Ostrogoths and not Lombard........Ostrogoths capital in Italy was ravenna
    Gepids are not Ostrogoths, Gepids are a distinct branch of the East Germanic group. The Lombards, prior to their migration to Italy conquered the Gepids and they certainly had Gepids in their band of people as they moved into Italy under the Lombard king Alboin circa 568 AD.
    Last edited by spruithean; 11-09-2019 at 09:39 PM.

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  15. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Gepids are not Ostrogoths, Gepids are a distinct branch of the East Germanic group. The Lombards, prior to their migration to Italy conquered the Gepids and they certainly had Gepids in their band of people as they moved into Italy under the Lombard king Alboin circa 568 AD.
    Yes my bad, I got them mixed with that Getae who joined the ostrogoths


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