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Thread: Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Looking at Trentino-Alto Adige in Michalis' table, it is quite likely that if we separated the Italian-speaking Trentino from the German-speaking Alto Adige (South Tyrol) the Trentino would be more like Lombardy (low Germanic and low Imperial Roman and mainly Etruscan+Italic/Iron Age Italian) while the Alto Adige would have much more of the Germanic/Szolad_Pure_Lombard element.

    Of course the German-speaking element in Alto Adige is ultimately Bavarian not Langobard.
    Thank you for this post! I have some ancestry from Trentino and I was expecting high Central European in my DNA or in some of my relatives (mainly due to the way they look) but it never showed. I saw the results of a relative that is fully Italian (but only 50% Trentino) and indeed he was not specially northern admixed. I'm finally understanding a little more of my DNA.

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  3. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Can anybody please run some models with ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31?
    I did some runs on Vahaduo and noticed that we are quite similar. Most Scandinavian with some Iberian like admixture + the Cossack_Kuban.
    Some people on this forum have already done that:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....056#post625056
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Late Antiquity Roman (Briton Profile):
    R31 (Mausoleo di Augusto, City of Rome) - 376 CE

    The earliest Late Antiquity sample is a Northern European. This person shows closest distances to Anglo-Saxon, England IA, and Welsh samples, so I labelled it Briton profile. But I suppose he could just as well have been a continental Germanic, Belgic, or what have you. These super-northern groups are so closely related it's not going to be an easy task to tell them apart without deeper analysis.

    So maybe R31 was just a Roman citizen from Britain or northern Gaul who happened to live in Rome. Or perhaps he was a foederatus or invader. Late Antiquity sees many different Germanic groups invade Italy, though to what extent they affected the region genetically is controversial. Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, and Lombards all had a turn fucking things up royally for the Romans-- many of them even sacked Rome itself (multiple times). So there was plenty of opportunity for the Germanics to mix with the locals and have an impact, especially considering the population collapses experienced in Late Antiquity.

    Distances:

     
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post625277
    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    Modern Belgian and North French seem common results for Roman-era burials with mobile Germanic tribal contexts:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post622904

    R31 looks really northern when you look at ancient samples -- maybe more Saxon-like than Briton?


    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
    Distance: 0.4604% / 0.00460411
    33.4 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ15
    18.2 DEU_MA_ACD:STR_355
    10.8 ISL_Viking_Age_NorseAV-A9
    10.2 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse:VDP-A5
    6.8 England_Saxon:I0777
    4.2 SWE_TRB:Kvarlov5164
    3.2 Corded_Ware_DEU:I1536
    3.2 Levant_ISR_C:I1187
    2.0 BEL_Loschbour:I0001
    1.8 DEU_LBK_N:I0795
    1.6 Levant_Natufian:I1072
    1.4 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001
    1.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG:I4871
    1.0 VUT_2300BP_all:I4451_all
    0.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I4247
    0.4 BGR_MP_N:I1297
    0.2 UKR_N:I4114

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
    Distance: 0.4604% / 0.00460446
    33.8 HUN_MA_Szolad
    20.8 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    17.8 DEU_MA_ACD
    7.0 England_Saxon
    4.0 SWE_TRB
    3.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
    3.2 Levant_ISR_C
    1.8 DEU_LBK_N
    1.8 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
    1.6 BEL_Loschbour
    1.6 Levant_Natufian
    1.0 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    1.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
    1.0 VUT_2300BP_all
    0.2 BGR_MP_N

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
    0.01291898 England_Saxon:I0777
    0.01627943 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1286
    0.01687039 DEU_MA_ACD:STR_355
    0.01701793 ISL_Viking_Age_mixed:TSK-A26
    0.01748027 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ15
    0.01814910 ISL_Viking_Age_mixed:HSJ-A1
    0.01827457 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse:VDP-A5
    0.01839620 England_MBA:I7576
    0.01844858 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7269
    0.01845589 England_Saxon:I0773
    0.01855990 England_Saxon:I0769
    0.01899684 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7278
    0.01900342 ITA_Collegno_MA:CL87
    0.01931994 CZE_Unetice_EBA:I5043
    0.01934916 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ11
    0.01936569 England_IA:M1489
    0.01948538 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ22
    0.01956783 IRL_BA:rath3
    0.01963899 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA:I0099
    0.01975702 England_Saxon:I0161
    0.01986983 SWE_LN:RISE98

    It is interesting that he is one of the samples who was radio carbon dated.
    The result was 332-419 AD, and the Mausoleo was looted (along with the rest of Rome) in 410 by Alaric and his army. So he was possibly buried there during or after the looting by the Visigoths.
    Or maybe the place was used for burials before the looting, but it seems unlikely as the reports were that the
    -- so even if it was semi-abandoned, it was intact enough for the emperors'* urns to still be there until the looting.

    Is there any more information on the context of his burial? Or isotope reading?

    *Description of the area before the looting (not sure how many years, though): "A corridor ran from the entryway into the heart of the mausoleum, where there was a chamber with three niches to hold the golden urns enshrining the ashes of the Imperial Family. Two pillars flanking the entrance were mounted with bronze plaques inscribed with the Res Gestae Divi Augusti, the document describing Augustus' accomplishments and victories.[3] Surrounding the mausoleum was landscaped parkland akin to modern public parks, affording a place of retreat at the heart of Rome's heavily urbanized Campus Martius."

    Given the Mausoleum's other inhabitants, it seems an odd place to dump a body of an ordinary person of any origin until after the looting or other degeneration:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post625345
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I guess so Dewsloth, this is my mothers result in vahaduo:

    Attachment 34946

    and the nMonte webrunner pen=0,001
    "sample": "Test1:FinnMom",
    "fit": 1.1957,
    "England_Saxon": 21.4,
    "HUN_MA_Szolad": 17.8,
    "ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity": 14.8,
    "DEU_Lech_BBC": 13.2,
    "ITA_Collegno_MA": 9,
    "SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna": 4,
    "DEU_MA": 3.2,
    "England_Roman": 2.8,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 1.2,
    "Bell_Beaker_Bavaria": 1,
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post625672
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    R31 looks as Germanic as it can get not only the usual suspects Anglo-Saxon, Deu MA, Szolad and the Nordic Iceland samples are pointing to this direction even residues of Funnelbeaker and Corded Ware Germany!

    It is interesting that he is one of the samples who was radio carbon dated.
    The result was 332-419 AD, and the Mausoleo was looted (along with the rest of Rome) in 410 by Alaric and his army. So he was possibly buried there during or after the looting by the Visigoths.
    Or maybe the place was used for burials before the looting, but it seems unlikely as the reports were that the
    "Visigoths rifled the vaults, stole the urns and scattered the ashes, without damaging the structure of the building.[4]
    Platner and Ashby, however, posited that "The story of its plundering by Alaric in 410 has no historical foundation, and we know nothing of its destruction".[5]"
    Indeed combined with this info:

    In 401 Alaric invaded Italy, but was defeated by Stilicho at Pollentia (modern Pollenza) on April 6, 402. A second invasion that same year also ended in defeat at the Battle of Verona, although he did force the Roman Senate to pay a large subsidy to the Visigoths. During Radagaisus' Italian invasion in 406, he remained idle in Illyria. In 408, Western Emperor Honorius ordered the execution of Stilicho and his family, in response to rumors that the general had made a deal with Alaric. Honorius then incited the Roman population to massacre tens of thousands of wives and children of foederati Goths serving in the Roman military. The Gothic soldiers then defected to Alaric, increasing the size of his force to around 30,000 men, and joined his march on Rome to avenge their murdered families.[4]

    Moving swiftly along Roman roads, Alaric sacked the cities of Aquileia and Cremona and ravaged the lands along the Adriatic Sea. The Visigothic leader thereupon laid siege to Rome in 408, but eventually the Senate granted him a substantial subsidy. In addition, he forced the Senate to liberate all 40,000 Gothic slaves in Rome. Honorius, however, refused to appoint Alaric as the commander of the Western Roman Army, and in 409 the Visigoths again surrounded Rome. Alaric lifted his blockade after proclaiming Attalus Western Emperor. Attalus appointed him magister utriusque militiae ("master of both services"), but refused to allow him to send an army into Africa. Negotiations with Honorius broke down, after which Alaric deposed Attalus in the summer of 410 and besieged Rome for the third time.
    (wiki)


    So R31 is no Scot but Goth!
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post626185
    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Distance to Moderns plot:
    [FONT="]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT="]

    [/FONT]
    Other north-shifted Late Romans:
    [FONT="]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT="]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT="]
    [/FONT]


    This is what I got when I ran it against Global25_PCA_modern_pop_averages_scaled in nMonte3:

    Code:
    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
               Welsh            Dutch        Norwegian          English 
            3.159048         3.320445         3.332307         3.339674 
     French_Brittany           German English_Cornwall         Scottish 
            3.429999         3.432852         3.446079         3.562185 
    
    [1] "2. FULL TABLE nMONTE"
    [1] "penalty= 0.001"
    [1] "Ncycles= 1000"
    
    [...]
    
    [1] "distance%=2.8627"
    
    	 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
    
    Norwegian,44.2
    Welsh,27.6
    German,7.2
    French_Paris,5
    Swedish,3
    Slovakian,2.2
    Basque_Spanish,1.8
    Spanish_Soria,1.8
    Cossack_Kuban,1
    French_Auvergne,1
    Sorb_Niederlausitz,1
    French_South,0.8
    Spanish_Girona,0.6
    Spanish_Penedes,0.6
    French_Nord,0.4
    French_Occitanie,0.4
    Spanish_Catalunya_Central,0.4
    Basque_French,0.2
    Dutch,0.2
    Spanish_Castello,0.2
    Spanish_Lleida,0.2
    Swiss_French,0.2
    And this is what I got when I ran it against Global25_PCA_pop_averages_scaled in nMonte3:

    Code:
    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
                   England_Saxon                   England_IA 
                        2.960854                     3.061179 
             Bell_Beaker_Bavaria              Bell_Beaker_CZE 
                        3.436860                     3.439958 
            ISL_Viking_Age_mixed                 DEU_Lech_EBA 
                        3.486971                     3.528728 
                   SVK_Poprad_MA Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale 
                        3.547252                     3.547939 
    
    [1] "2. FULL TABLE nMONTE"
    [1] "penalty= 0.001"
    [1] "Ncycles= 1000"
    
    [...]
    
    [1] "distance%=1.8794"
    
    	 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
    
    England_Saxon,44
    USA_colonial_period,10.8
    DNK_LN,9
    ISL_Viking_Age_Norse,6.4
    DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3,5.6
    SVK_Poprad_MA,3.2
    England_IA,2.4
    Scythian_MDA_o,2.4
    DEU_Lech_EBA,1.8
    Iberia_Northeast_RomP,1.4
    HUN_LBA,1
    SWE_LN,0.8
    FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o,0.6
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1,0.6
    Baltic_LTU_Meso,0.4
    Bell_Beaker_FRA_C,0.4
    BGR_Varna_En3,0.4
    DEU_Blatterhohle_MN,0.4
    HUN_MA,0.4
    ITA_Villanovan,0.4
    MKD_N,0.4
    SRB_Iron_Gates_HG,0.4
    SRB_Iron_Gates_HG_o,0.4
    Anatolia_Pinarbasi_HG,0.2
    Baltic_LTU_Narva,0.2
    BEL_Loschbour,0.2
    Bell_Beaker_Bavaria,0.2
    Bell_Beaker_CZE,0.2
    Bell_Beaker_FRA_lowSteppe,0.2
    Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA_o,0.2
    BGR_Late_C,0.2
    Corded_Ware_CZE_o,0.2
    CZE_Bilina_N_Baalberge,0.2
    DEU_Esperstedt_MN,0.2
    DEU_Halberstadt_LBA,0.2
    DEU_LBK_N,0.2
    DEU_Lech_MBA,0.2
    FRA_MN,0.2
    HRV_Impressa_N,0.2
    HRV_Starcevo_LN,0.2
    HUN_ALPc_Szatmar_MN,0.2
    HUN_Koros_N_HG,0.2
    Iberia_Central_BA,0.2
    Iberia_East_IA,0.2
    Iberia_MN,0.2
    Iberia_Northeast_BA,0.2
    Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL,0.2
    Iberia_Southwest_CA,0.2
    Iberia_Southwest_MLN,0.2
    ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_o,0.2
    POL_TRB,0.2
    Scotland_N,0.2
    Scotland_N_o,0.2
    SWE_Motala_HG,0.2
    SWE_TRB,0.2
    Last edited by NixYO; 12-26-2019 at 03:06 AM.

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  5. #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    R31 looks as Germanic as it can get not only the usual suspects Anglo-Saxon, Deu MA, Szolad and the Nordic Iceland samples are pointing to this direction even residues of Funnelbeaker and Corded Ware Germany!



    Indeed combined with this info:

    (wiki)


    So R31 is no Scot but Goth!
    These are the distances for this potential Goth to the other Late Roman Antiquity samples:

    Code:
    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR106 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR108 
                           4.430541                        6.007559 
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110 
                           7.739827                        8.095801 
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR105  ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33 
                           8.110725                        8.815385 
     ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR118 
                          11.051926                       11.883804
    And this is what nMonte3 gives if one runs ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR106 against modern populations:

    Code:
    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
            Belgian     French_Nord    Swiss_German   French_Alsace          German 
           2.623729        2.710222        2.752219        2.806832        3.033928 
       French_Paris French_Brittany           Welsh 
           3.074818        3.248141        3.299877 
    
    [1] "2. FULL TABLE nMONTE"
    [1] "penalty= 0.001"
    [1] "Ncycles= 1000"
    
    [...]
    
    [1] "distance%=2.2588"
    
    	 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR106
    
    Swiss_German,52.8
    German,6
    Welsh,5.6
    Orcadian,4.6
    Scottish,4.6
    Dutch,3.4
    Belgian,3.2
    French_Nord,3.2
    Icelandic,2.2
    Shetlandic,1.8
    Norwegian,1.6
    English,1.2
    English_Cornwall,1
    Swedish,1
    Swiss_French,0.8
    Slovakian,0.6
    German_East,0.4
    Irish,0.4
    Roma_Madrid,0.4
    Roma_Porto,0.4
    Sorb_Niederlausitz,0.4
    Armenian,0.2
    Assyrian,0.2
    Bantu_Kenya,0.2
    Chechen,0.2
    Cossack_Kuban,0.2
    Ethiopian_Tigray,0.2
    French_Paris,0.2
    Greek_Thrace,0.2
    Greek_Trabzon,0.2
    Karachay,0.2
    Kho_Singanali,0.2
    Kohistani,0.2
    Parsi_India,0.2
    Roma_Bilbao,0.2
    Roma_Granada,0.2
    Ror,0.2
    Russian_Kostroma,0.2
    Syrian,0.2
    Tajik_Rushan,0.2
    Tajik_Yagnobi,0.2
    Turkish_Balikesir,0.2
    Turkish_Trabzon,0.2
    With Vahaduo:

     
    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR106
    0.02623729 Belgian
    0.02710222 French_Nord
    0.02752219 Swiss_German
    0.02806832 French_Alsace
    0.03033928 German
    0.03074818 French_Paris
    0.03248141 French_Brittany
    0.03299877 Welsh
    0.03456248 Dutch
    0.03496996 English
    0.03520868 English_Cornwall
    0.03558294 Austrian
    0.03653815 Orcadian
    0.03670255 Scottish
    0.03771103 French_Occitanie
    0.03922431 French_Auvergne
    0.03956393 Swiss_French
    0.03998584 Irish
    0.04040830 Shetlandic
    0.04098463 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    0.04283714 French_Provence
    0.04365588 Hungarian
    0.04416834 German_East
    0.04510353 Norwegian
    0.04607824 Icelandic

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR106
    Distance: 1.8908% / 0.01890828
    42.0 Icelandic
    32.4 Swiss_French
    12.4 Greek_Thrace
    5.8 Orcadian
    2.2 Welsh
    2.0 Makrani
    1.6 Spanish_La_Rioja
    0.8 Papuan
    0.4 Dinka
    0.2 Mbuti
    0.2 Surui


    ^^ This individual fits within the Anthrogenica member tchekitchek's Greater Walloon triangle (Wallonia, Eastern France, South Western Germany and Switzerland (okay, he does not call it that! )).

    Something that distinguishes the people of Greater Wallonia in comparison to inter alia Flemings and Normans according to tchekitchek is a higher East Med component, so I tried to model this sample as Dutch + Sicilian_East and this is what I got:

    nMonte3:
    Code:
    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
            Dutch Sicilian_East 
         3.456248     10.684615 
    
    [1] "2. FULL TABLE nMONTE"
    [1] "penalty= 0.001"
    [1] "Ncycles= 1000"
    
    [...]
    
    [1] "distance%=2.4404"
    
    	 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR106
    
    Dutch,81
    Sicilian_East,19
    Vahaduo:
     
    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR106
    0.03456248 Dutch
    0.10684615 Sicilian_East

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR106
    Distance: 2.4404% / 0.02440381
    81.0 Dutch
    19.0 Sicilian_East


    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31 on the other hand comes out as 100% Dutch with this model:

    Vahaduo:
     
    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
    0.03320445 Dutch
    0.13402946 Sicilian_East

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
    Distance: 3.3204% / 0.03320445
    100.0 Dutch
    Last edited by NixYO; 12-27-2019 at 03:38 AM.

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  7. #1004
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    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA (P)
    T1a2b- SK1480
    mtDNA (M)
    H95a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-S8172
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b17

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Italy Ladinia Austria Tirol
    Roman sample

    R120 is T1a2-L131 branch and has no snp's beyond this below

    T-CTS933 CTS6071 * S24464 * CTS933+3 SNPsformed 7700 ybp, TMRCA 6900 ybp


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483 )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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  9. #1005
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    Alta California
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    Mostly French + Italian
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    most likely J-L210
    mtDNA (P)
    K1b2b

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    R9; 5607-5485 BC; Grotta Continenza; Neolithic; G2a2a-PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z42565

    This one is excellent candidate for Yfull tree, given the rarity of the subclade and very good depth of coverage (~3,88).
    Have you sent this to YFull yet?
    MDKA: Robert Boulay, b. 1631, Réveillon, Orne, France
    Y-DNA: R1b-U152 > L2 > Z367 > Z34 > Z33 > BY164497> BY3604

    Maternal Y-DNA: J2a-M67 > Z1847 > Y4036 > Z467 > Z447> L210

  10. #1006
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    United States of America
    The big surprise for me is that apparently northern Italians are the modern population most like the Iron Age/Republic-era Romans. I would have thought that modern southern Italians would have been closer to the original Latins, since northerners would presumably have more ancestry from Celtic and Germanic peoples who arrived in Italy later.

    Nonetheless, it's nice to see imperial Rome's polyglot character being confirmed through aDNA research. I wonder how typical this would have been for other "classical" Mediterranean civilizations, such as Carthage or the Greek city-states?

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  12. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon S. Pilcher View Post
    The big surprise for me is that apparently northern Italians are the modern population most like the Iron Age/Republic-era Romans. I would have thought that modern southern Italians would have been closer to the original Latins, since northerners would presumably have more ancestry from Celtic and Germanic peoples who arrived in Italy later.

    Nonetheless, it's nice to see imperial Rome's polyglot character being confirmed through aDNA research. I wonder how typical this would have been for other "classical" Mediterranean civilizations, such as Carthage or the Greek city-states?
    Yes but it would be very naive and pretentious for anyone to fancifully imagine modern North Italians as some preserved Iron Age/republican era Relic population lol going by what we have recently discovered regarding the changing genetic profile of Rome/Lazio Central Italians, I imagine similarly,that by Imperial Roman times your average North Italian probably plotted more like a modern Central Italian only for late antiquity Ostrogoth,Lombard,Holy Roman era North Euro like Admixture to bring North Italians back to there current Iron Age/republican like levels of today.
    Last edited by Claudio; 12-30-2019 at 12:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Yes but it would be very naive and pretentious for anyone to fancifully imagine modern North Italians as some preserved Iron Age/republican era Relic population lol going by what we have recently discovered regarding the changing genetic profile of Rome/Lazio Central Italians, I imagine similarly,that by Imperial Roman times your average North Italian probably plotted more like a modern Central Italian only for late antiquity Ostrogoth,Lombard,Holy Roman era North Euro like Admixture to bring North Italians back to there current Iron Age/republican like levels of today.
    Are you Italian? Most of your post favor the idea that Italians are a mixture between near eastern, greeks and Germanic invaders.
    We have not enough samples from other parts of Italy to bealive that all Italy was Near Eastern at the Imperal period.
    Of course Rome was the biggest city in the world at the time and both slaves and migrants would change the genetics of the original Latin people.
    But how come Central and North Italians don't have this admixture you dream about?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Yes but it would be very naive and pretentious for anyone to fancifully imagine modern North Italians as some preserved Iron Age/republican era Relic population lol going by what we have recently discovered regarding the changing genetic profile of Rome/Lazio Central Italians, I imagine similarly,that by Imperial Roman times your average North Italian probably plotted more like a modern Central Italian only for late antiquity Ostrogoth,Lombard,Holy Roman era North Euro like Admixture to bring North Italians back to there current Iron Age/republican like levels of today.
    Y-Dna statistics in northern Italy do not support a large Germanic input in the early Middle Ages.

    Nevertheless, Republican Roman colonies, whether of Latin or Roman status, were much stronger in lowland Emilia from Rimini to Piacenza (Placentia) along the Via Aemilia, with the only major colony in what is now modern Lombardy being Cremona, adjacent to the colony of Placentia in Emilia.

    There was some Roman colonisation in lowland Piedmont also.

    The rest of the Po Plain was largely made up of Romanised Cisalpine Gauls, or Veneti in the north-east of Italy.
    Last edited by Cascio; 12-30-2019 at 03:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Yes but it would be very naive and pretentious for anyone to fancifully imagine modern North Italians as some preserved Iron Age/republican era Relic population lol going by what we have recently discovered regarding the changing genetic profile of Rome/Lazio Central Italians, I imagine similarly,that by Imperial Roman times your average North Italian probably plotted more like a modern Central Italian only for late antiquity Ostrogoth,Lombard,Holy Roman era North Euro like Admixture to bring North Italians back to there current Iron Age/republican like levels of today.
    you do realise that swabians and bavarians ( southern germans ) where in north italy from pre-1000AD ( after the Lombards )...........people like Pepin, the 3 Otto kings, Scaliger, Ezzelini families etc etc

    also....Austria and Austrians formed out of bavarian people around 998AD .........so they are related


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