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Thread: Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    This seems to make a lot more sense than Etruscans being uniformly R1b and I1.
    This is made difficult by this:

     
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Since he is in the same exact sub-branch as I4331 from Croatia (J-Y15058) who was ~1000 years older, I would say he most likely came from the Balkans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Leonard Palmer, linguist, in his book on the Latin language mentions (bottom right*) that Illyrians fused into different combinations, and this is seen in mixed Etruscan/Illyrian/Latin names. I guess this is the most straightforward explanation. Great find! Please let us know if you have time to check the BAM for the other J2b's and the EV13's.

     



    Also, the L283 found in Civitavecchia, very near rome, dates to ~700-600BC, important to keep mind.

    The Dardanians in the Iliad, while connected with Trojans, are seperate people, and we know they are connected with Illyrians. The entire Aeneid is about a post Trojan war Dardanian migration into Italy, and so far this is the only candidate clade we have found.

    The Dardanians are mentioned as meeting the Latins/Italics already there when they arrive, meaning they are specifically recalled as a distinct people:

     

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    I finally got the hang of it, about 4-5 ancient dna papers later
    I told you you would

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  5. #103
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    R835, Civitanova Marche, 27-300BCE (Imperial), belongs to J1-Z2331>Z2317* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2317/

    Was convinced it would have belonged to a downstream but has no calls at virtually all and is certainly negative for Z1884 and Y3081.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

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  7. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This is made difficult by this:

     





    Also, the L283 found in Civitavecchia, very near rome, dates to ~700-600BC, important to keep mind.

    The Dardanians in the Iliad, while connected with Trojans, are seperate people, and we know they are connected with Illyrians. The entire Aeneid is about a post Trojan war Dardanian migration into Italy, and so far this is the only candidate clade we have found.

    The Dardanians are mentioned as meeting the Latins/Italics already there when they arrive, meaning they are specifically recalled as a distinct people:

     
    None of those haplgroups are from the steppes or linked with "steppe" ancestry. Please enough already. Etruscans were throughout north-central Italy and during the Roman Republic it was a fusion of Etruscans, Latins and Greeks, and perhaps the occasional Gaulish type from the north. Nobody knows how long the Etruscans were in Italy, and seeing Iran_Neo in Italy from an early stage lends some creedence there were various waves of Middle Eastern ancestry present.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

  8. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    I have looked at a three R-P311 and R-P312 samples and unsurprisingly two are positive for L2. The other has no coverage of U152, L2, or DF27 but is negative for L21.
    ArmandoR1b, did they test L20? Are both L2+ ancestral for the L20 SNP? Thank you.

  9. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    None of those haplgroups are from the steppes or linked with "steppe" ancestry. Please enough already. Etruscans were throughout north-central Italy and during the Roman Republic it was a fusion of Etruscans, Latins and Greeks, and perhaps the occasional Gaulish type from the north. Nobody knows how long the Etruscans were in Italy, and seeing Iran_Neo in Italy from an early stage lends some creedence there were various waves of Middle Eastern ancestry present.
    Are you sure. I think you will be proven wrong sooner or later.

    You actually already have, as I4331 from southern Croatia clearly carried Steppe ancestry. But I think you will eventually see the writing in the wall..
    Last edited by Trojet; 11-08-2019 at 01:29 AM.

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  11. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    None of those haplgroups are from the steppes or linked with "steppe" ancestry. Please enough already. Etruscans were throughout north-central Italy and during the Roman Republic it was a fusion of Etruscans, Latins and Greeks, and perhaps the occasional Gaulish type from the north. Nobody knows how long the Etruscans were in Italy, and seeing Iran_Neo in Italy from an early stage lends some creedence there were various waves of Middle Eastern ancestry present.
    The L283 has both clade indications, and sufficient culturo-historic (Aeneid Myth, Messapic/Illyric languages in Italy) indications, to not be an Etruscan native clade. Unless new evidence that suggests otherwise comes forward, this is the working hypothesis. The Illyrian coast where we found the L283 of the same branch (1000 years older than that in Rome) has no tradition or archaeological signs of having had Etruscans living there. So it is not a good fit, unless you know something we don't.

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  13. #108
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    We are about to see a lot of overlap between the bulk of the Imperial-Late Antique samples and every present-day Eastern Mediterranean population, to a far greater extent than the dozen or so ancient Greek samples we've had so far. And when I say every, I mean every, case in point (Figure S14):



    This is a major breakthrough and considering the avowedly cosmopolitan nature of the results dating back to the Imperial period, a lot of this is bound to be directly relevant to the origins of the aforementioned populations (including non-Italians).
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  15. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    ArmandoR1b, did they test L20? Are both L2+ ancestral for the L20 SNP? Thank you.
    They don't have coverage of L20 meaning that the DNA was too degraded. So there was not a positive or a negative read but not because it wasn't tested. Degradation of DNA is a principal reason a lot of branches aren't found in the ancient specimens. For some reason L2 gets a hit a good percentage of the time.
    Last edited by ArmandoR1b; 11-08-2019 at 02:30 PM.

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