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Thread: Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    I checked none of the major 4 Ashkenazi mtdna lineages are found in this paper, in fact the only 2 Ashkenazi Mtdna lineages I found were T2b and T2a1b which in themselves are minor branches overall T makes up 5% of Ashkenazi Mt, so let's say these 2 branches represent 1% of modern Ashkenazi Mtdna.
    Very interesting !

    So we now have two sites, dated to the same era, one of which used to be the location of the largest Jewish community in the Italian peninsula during Roman times, and none of the major maternal Ashkenazi branches have been found. Two things which might arise from this:

    1. Either several of the major paternal subclades we usually affiliate with the Levant are actually East Med, like J2 - this is extremely unlikely.
    2. Ashkenazi bottleneck has been so severe that several infrequent French subclades became extremely widespread - perhaps plausible.
    3. Ashkenazi maternal K subclades are really Near Eastern - but then if both the majority of the paternal lineages and substantial part of the maternal lineages are Near Eastern - how come Ashkenazi Jews overlap autosomally with South Italians and Aegean populations, and are not much more Near Eastern shifted?
    4. Those haplogroups were extremely widespread among East Med populations rather than Italian - again would be quite surprising.
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  3. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Very interesting !

    So we now have two sites, dated to the same era, one of which used to be the location of the largest Jewish community in the Italian peninsula during Roman times, and none of the major maternal Ashkenazi branches have been found. Two things which might arise from this:

    1. Either several of the major paternal subclades we usually affiliate with the Levant are actually East Med, like J2 - this is extremely unlikely.
    2. Ashkenazi bottleneck has been so severe that several infrequent French subclades became extremely widespread - perhaps plausible.
    3. Ashkenazi maternal K subclades are really Near Eastern - but then if both the majority of the paternal lineages and substantial part of the maternal lineages are Near Eastern - how come Ashkenazi Jews overlap autosomally with South Italians and Aegean populations, and are not much more Near Eastern shifted?
    4. Those haplogroups were extremely widespread among East Med populations rather than Italian - again would be quite surprising.
    As I've been betting, it's mostly #2. It would also explain the plotting of Ashkenazim if these are South French/Iberian in origin. I did see H11a, which some Ashkenazim have. Some of the H's might've made their way to Ashkenazim too. However, I didn't see any of the major ones. We may also be underestimating North European admixture in Ashkenazim and how far it would shift the average.
    Last edited by StillWater; 11-08-2019 at 09:30 PM.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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  5. #213
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    Does anyone know the mtDNA haplogroup results of the Mesolithic and Neolithic samples from this paper?

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  7. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    As I've been betting, it's mostly #2. It would also explain the plotting of Ashkenazim if these are South French/Iberian in origin. I did see H11a, which some Ashkenazim have. Some of the H's might've made their way to Ashkenazim too. However, I didn't see any of the major ones. We may also be underestimating North European admixture in Ashkenazim and how far it would shift the average.
    Well if it's #2 then it wouldn't really affect plotting, as a severe bottleneck could have just eliminate the previously more frequent subclades and raise the commonality of the less frequent ones without changing autosomal plotting much.

    What I mean is - lets say originally French subclades were perhaps 10% among the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews, but those 10% Ashkenazi Jews still had the same autosomal admixture proportions that other Ashkenazi Jews had. Then the severe bottleneck screwed up the numbers so much that now those 10% became 40% of the surviving population which gave rise to modern Ashkenazi Jews. Anyhow, we should take this conversation to the Western Jews mega-thread as it's really becoming off-topic .
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  9. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    R835, Civitanova Marche, 27-300BCE (Imperial), belongs to J1-Z2331>Z2317* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2317/

    Was convinced it would have belonged to a downstream but has no calls at virtually all and is certainly negative for Z1884 and Y3081.
    Can you check those negatives again?

    Y3081 level:

    Y3085/FGC13865/ZS242+ C>T (1 read)

    Y3086/FGC13869/ZS241+ G>A (1 read)

    Y3094/FGC13870/Z18264+ T>C (1 read)

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  11. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    Can you check those negatives again?

    Y3081 level:

    Y3085/FGC13865/ZS242+ C>T (1 read)

    Y3086/FGC13869/ZS241+ G>A (1 read)

    Y3094/FGC13870/Z18264+ T>C (1 read)
    The S21060, Y3468 and Y3081 snps are getting positives at the wrong spot, so I would put it as negative, I guess R835 would be better classified as

    R835, Civitanova Marche, 27-300BCE (Imperial), belongs to J1-Z2331>Pre-Y3081 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3081*/
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13> A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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  13. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The L283 has both clade indications, and sufficient culturo-historic (Aeneid Myth, Messapic/Illyric languages in Italy) indications, to not be an Etruscan native clade. Unless new evidence that suggests otherwise comes forward, this is the working hypothesis. The Illyrian coast where we found the L283 of the same branch (1000 years older than that in Rome) has no tradition or archaeological signs of having had Etruscans living there. So it is not a good fit, unless you know something we don't.
    Visualisation:

     

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  15. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Imperial Roman sample R66 is very interesting: R(xR1,xR2a). No read for R2.
    R66 is R2a-Y3399>Y3370 (x FGC13203,Y23623,Y8763)

    R2 level: 30 derived SNPs, 1 ancestral

    R2>Y3399 level: 8 derived SNPs

    R2>Y3399>Y3370 level: 1 derived SNP; Y3371/FGC12735/V4646+ G>A (1 read)

    R2>Y3399>Y3370>FGC13203: FGC13203- A>G (1 read)

    R2>Y3399>Y3370>Y12100: *no reads*

    R2>Y3399>Y3370>Y12100>Y23623: Y23623/FGC51793- G>A (1 read)

    R2>Y3399>Y3370>Y12100>Y8763: Y8763/FGC12615/V7980- T>G (1 read)

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  17. #219
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    Map of Germanic Y-DNA in Italy by Passa (I reposted on last page of the thread) indicates 3% to 9% in Lazio:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Italy-by-Passa


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  19. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Map of Germanic Y-DNA in Italy by Passa (I reposted on last page of the thread) indicates 3% to 9% in Lazio:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Italy-by-Passa
    What is it defined as "Germanic yDNA"? Goths seem to carry a good deal of haplogroups not typically associated with Germanics because they included foreigners over centuries, so this map may be giving an underrated figure
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y168273 Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
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