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Thread: Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    In what respect? Olalde et al. 2018 looks to have introduced more new ancient DNA samples of equal or higher coverage than this one.
    Olalde et al. did introduce more samples, but not nearly of equal quality. 1240K samples from Harvard & Max Planck and shotgun sequenced whole genomes from Roman and Viking papers are not in the same league. Enormous difference in quality can be seen just by looking at terminal Y-subclades after analyzing BAM files, for instance compare these subclades reported for Roman samples and those reported for Lech Valley samples, or Olalde's Iberian samples. I'll repeat, not in the same league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greekscholar View Post
    This is an interesting idea. But have you seen any proof of it in the data? Here is a K15 PCA made by me from Sikeliot's Calabrian samples. The two Cosenza sample plot with NE_Aegean and Cyclades Islanders. The most "north and west" sample still doesn't make it to Abruzzo, the "top" of the continuum populations. I agree there is a lot of diversity in a relatively small area, but I have yet to see evidence of any sub-region that "stopped" or minimized Greek influence. It seems ubiquitous in Southern Italy.
    Have you seen my grandfather's K15 results? He is 100% Calabrese from Cosenza Province.

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  5. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greekscholar View Post
    This is an interesting idea. But have you seen any proof of it in the data? Here is a K15 PCA made by me from Sikeliot's Calabrian samples. The two Cosenza sample plot with NE_Aegean and Cyclades Islanders. The most "north and west" sample still doesn't make it to Abruzzo, the "top" of the continuum populations. I agree there is a lot of diversity in a relatively small area, but I have yet to see evidence of any sub-region that "stopped" or minimized Greek influence. It seems ubiquitous in Southern Italy.
    Nice I have never seen these two samples. From which towns or part of the province they come (if you have the towns) ?

    Edited : I've seen these samples and also the crotonese

    I think we have to reason on a sub-region basis , it's impossible to understand an area like Sicily without dividing it in various parts for example, as Sikeliot has shown us with his dozens of samples.

    I don't say that I've a proof for that although there are either Apulians or Cosentians results with very high Greeks and Balkans (so definitely Northern shifted and less East Med, and end up on Abbruzzo probably), and hints that I've given on the East Med continuum thread. It's just that to understand better this whole region of S.Italy I would like that geneticists would go on tiny villages, isolates places, and differentiating the samples and their localisation as done in this study. Only with that we could possibly understand this diversity ! I expect intra-provincial variations honestly.

    This is the problem that I have identified with international studies including samples from S.Italy, averages that mean nothing.

    For the greek impact I think that all coastal and metropolitan areas have been affected, the inland areas would be more interesting because some are really remote, remote in a sense that there was a strong endogamy and even if prosperous the village kept "strangers" relatively out.

    Of course we would need the ancient counter-part of these modern DNA, and archeological sites aren't a rarity in S.Italy .
    Last edited by Genetique; 11-11-2019 at 03:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Not particularly surprised my group U106 only showed up in one sample and medieval at that (I consider him a desendant of earlier migrants from the North etc perhaps Baiuvarii (remember there was a possible Z305 - which is on the same SNP level as Z306 and Z307 see my sig - was found at Altenerding and Altheim 1 was DF96+ - they were late Roman/early Migration era burials around Munich) or another tribe that ended up in Italy after the migration period etc)... didn't really expect any in Imperial Rome, unless they were looking at any migrant/soldiers from the Rhinelands i.e. bodyguard burials - they look at any military burials in this paper? I suppose my 2nd question would be are there any testable remains of military burials?

    Cheers,
    Charlie
    there was a germanic presence at the site attested by two sunken-floored buildings(grubenhaus) associated with the migration era -These two sunken-floored buildings deserve some comment. Probably dating towards the end of the sixth century or the beginning of the seventh ... and could have emerged through any number of channels, from returning auxiliaries to conquering armies maybe its a remnant of these days because these samples all stem from the monastery(churchyard) of the high-middleages and its story is less spectacular -The foundation of a monastery (San Pietro di Villamagna) in 976 and its estate made of lands donated by four noblemen of Anagni, together with the development of an adjacent vicus to the south, brought the site firmly into the orbit of adjacent bishoprics (Anagni, Segni) and the papal estates ... In the case of Villamagna, the textual evidence from the later twelfth and thirteenth centuries casts light on a tense political situation involving both lay and ecclesiastical members of the community. Where there is evidence for the domination of ecclesiastical institution over lay peasants, including those who had sworn loyalty as vassals, both in terms of their work obligations and in terms of their material worlds, the peasants nonetheless pledged allegiance to the abbot ... All the individuals were laid out in an extended supine position with arms clasped either over the pelvis or torso, and the majority follow a W-E orientation ...and From the 1150s, some of the parcels worked by the men of Villamagna were contested by a local Lord, Corrado of Sgurgola. Corrado claimed that the monastery had appropriated some of his lands and compelled the peasants in the village of Villamagna (part of which we believe we have excavated) to farm those lands on his behalf. (Carocci 1997) Decades of conflict ensued, with the men of Corrado stealing animals, burning part of the village and threatening the rest. Eventually papal envoys were summoned to resolve the matter ...this is as exciting as it gets, so the 'Villa Magna' samples are just avg. medieval peasants bound to that monastery and its abbot

    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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    All the samples were provided by Sikeliot. He likely knows more about where they all come from.

    J-man, I would be interested in plotting that sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Almost all the samples were over 2 Gb in data, I went through all the Iberian J2’s and most were not good quality, this paper’s samples have better preserved dna in general.
    I second that. The quality of the samples in this paper is by far the best that has come out from any lab to this point. In fact, every single sample was taken from the Petrous bone.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
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    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
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    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Oops sorry my bad I was thinking of Olalde et al. 2019, no I haven’t and I doubt you wouldn’t bring it up if it wasn’t the case, so we can say Antonio et al. 2019 and Olalde et al. 2018 were excellent dna papers in terms of dna quality how about that?
    I went back and looked at how many Y-DNA SNPs were produced from some Olalde et al. 2018 files that looked to have a lot of coverage. They have fewer Y-DNA SNP calls than files from Antonio et al. 2019 that seemed to have less coverage. So you were right to begin with. I was going by the SNP count the spreadsheets have since Olalde et al. 2018 doesn't have a column for coverage. It's kind of weird that there is similar SNP counts in the spreadsheets but Y-DNA SNP count is higher in the Y-DNA output files of Antonio et al. 2019. I should have looked at my output files before posting my questions. So it was more my bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    Olalde et al. did introduce more samples, but not nearly of equal quality. 1240K samples from Harvard & Max Planck and shotgun sequenced whole genomes from Roman and Viking papers are not in the same league. Enormous difference in quality can be seen just by looking at terminal Y-subclades after analyzing BAM files, for instance compare these subclades reported for Roman samples and those reported for Lech Valley samples, or Olalde's Iberian samples. I'll repeat, not in the same league.
    I saw that after I looked at the SNP count of the Olalde et al 2018 and Antonio et al. 2019 files I analyzed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greekscholar View Post
    All the samples were provided by Sikeliot. He likely knows more about where they all come from.

    J-man, I would be interested in plotting that sample.
    Want me to PM you my grandfather's GEDmatch number?

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    R1014; 3500-2500 BC; Monte San Biagio; Chalcolithic (Gaudo Culture); H2-P96* (xY28140,Y21618,Y19962)

    This sample could possibly form a clade with a sole modern P96* sample from Sardinia, but I doubt it will be accepted by Yfull due to lower coverage (~0,59).

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