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Thread: High African-Arab component normal in Southwestern Europe?

  1. #11
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    Thank you all, guys. I'll keep watching you and learning.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adamm View Post
    Please upload your raw DNA to this website, they will predict your haplogroup for you:

    https://ytree.morleydna.com/
    I'm sorry, I don't yet how to do that. Could you give me some guidance?

  2. #12
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    North African input is an inherent part of Iberian DNA and is higher in Portugal than in Spain.

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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tatals View Post
    Hello, everyone.

    I'd like to request your take on my results. Please bear with my questions and possible "noobishnes", as I'm still a beginner in genetics. As most people, I've started learning about it because of genealogy, so my approach tends to be more traditional/modern migrations rather than biological/ancient peoples.

    A little bit of my paper trail background: as a good Northern Paulista (Brazilian Southeast), I descend mostly from Sourthern Europeans: 8 of my great-grandparents were Italian (50%; 7 from Northern Italy, mostly Veneto, and 1 from Campania), 4 were Portuguese (25%), 2 were "Brazilian" (a mix of Portuguese and Natives; 12,5%), and 2 are still unknown - I'm just now beginning to uncover their roots.

    I've only tested with FTDNA so far, and also used the raw data on MyHeritage and GEDmatch - I was willing to test it on EthnoGene and DNA.Land, too, but they seem to be having problemas. I'm also going to test with other companies in the near future, but please consider these current results.

    FTDNA:

    Attachment 34435

    MyHeritage:

    Attachment 34436

    Eurogenes K13:

    Attachment 34438

    Eurogenes K15:

    Attachment 34437


    FTDNA was a bit off the mark with my European map, because it completely ignored my Iberian background, but the others seem okay. My big question, though, is regarding the non-European admixture.

    When I first got the results, I didn't think much of it, because I was expecting some Levantine/North African percentage due to the Moorish presence in Portugal. But I've noticed here and there in the forums that Portuguese people seem to get a much lower portion from these regions (- I've seen 4 ou 5% being mentioned).

    Now, being pretty admixed, and also because of the way we inherit chromosomes, I know my results will oscilate when I compare my results with 100% Europeans', but I still think 12-15% African-Arab DNA coming only from the Portuguese side is still pretty high. Do you think this could mean a more recent Muslim ancestry? I mean, I still have that one side of my family to explore, even though their family names are common Brazilian/Portuguese ones.

    Also, what do you think of the Amerind component? I could only find Natives 6 or 7 generations back, so I'm starting to think that is high, too, and I'm probably missing something - maybe on the same mysterious branch.

    I'm leaving my results from K15 in comparison to Northern Italian and Portuguese from the spreadsheet for further and more accessible comparison:

    Attachment 34439
    It seems that there were many Canary Islanders (which have a non-negligible North-African component, because they're partially descended from Guanches) among the first Europeans/Spaniards that moved to the Americas, especially in the Caribbean. Maybe this could somehow explain your small (2-3%?) North African component (although I notice it's Northeast rather than Northwest African)? Here's this work: Reconstructing the Population Genetic History of the Caribbean.


    "Also, what do you think of the Amerind component? I could only find Natives 6 or 7 generations back, so I'm starting to think that is high, too, and I'm probably missing something - maybe on the same mysterious branch."

    I've met several people from South America (including Argentina, Brazil, Colombia...). They told me they were predominantly European or had no known Indigenous ancestry, but when you looked at them you could tell they most certainly did. I think it -perhaps- has to do with the fact that Indigenous Americans didn't have surnames like those of Europeans, so they or their mixed offspring often adopted the colonizers' family names. That's why we have places like Peru or Bolivia where 70-90% of the population is Indigenous/Mestizo but virtually all of them carry Spanish surnames. This could also apply to African-Americans and English surnames.
    Last edited by Milkyway; 11-09-2019 at 09:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tatals View Post
    Thank you all, guys. I'll keep watching you and learning.


    I'm sorry, I don't yet how to do that. Could you give me some guidance?
    Just attach your RAW data, select FTDNA format, complete I'm not a robot CAPTCHA, then click predict, et voila, it should give you your Y-DNA prediction . It correctly predicted mine from an Ancestry file, in comparison to what 23andme gave.

    Regarding your results, I would say MyHeritage and FTDNA probably have the least accurate ethnicity indicators - the North African component is likely over estimated - North Africans are also descended from Spanish Visigoths and Basques who converted to Islam and left after the Inquisition so these companies may be wrongly assuming some markers are originally north African. Your GEDMATCH K13 and K15 results are fairly in line with Portuguese for the averages for these calculators, bar a slightly increased East Med and Red Sea and Native American - the former two of which are likely down to Sephardic Jewish-Converso ancestry which is very common in Latin Americans, and the latter some mestizo ancestry.

    K13 averages
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...nh-rCOj0c/edit

    K15 averages
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1872836177

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    Associating only visigoths and basques to hispanic population as native components in first centuries in Middle Age isn't appropiate, even less in last centuries of Middle Age. There were more genetics components in native population of Hispania before muslims arrived.

    I don't know what kind of samples have My Heritage or FTDNA, but associating a part of overestimated percentage of North Africa to hispanic muslims that migrated to Magreb between XV and XVI centuries it's something that I don't see much sense. In general, the Iberians have a North African genetic component, therefore it's normal for this type of evidence to appear, that the result is inflated or not, it's a problem with the algorithm itself.

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  10. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkyway View Post
    It seems that there were many Canary Islanders (which have a non-negligible North-African component, because they're partially descended from Guanches) among the first Europeans/Spaniards that moved to the Americas, especially in the Caribbean. Maybe this could somehow explain your small (2-3%?) North African component (although I notice it's Northeast rather than Northwest African)? Here's this work: Reconstructing the Population Genetic History of the Caribbean.


    "Also, what do you think of the Amerind component? I could only find Natives 6 or 7 generations back, so I'm starting to think that is high, too, and I'm probably missing something - maybe on the same mysterious branch."

    I've met several people from South America (including Argentina, Brazil, Colombia...). They told me they were predominantly European or had no known Indigenous ancestry, but when you looked at them you could tell they most certainly did. I think it -perhaps- has to do with the fact that Indigenous Americans didn't have surnames like those of Europeans, so they or their mixed offspring often adopted the colonizers' family names. That's why we have places like Peru or Bolivia where 70-90% of the population is Indigenous/Mestizo but virtually all of them carry Spanish surnames. This could also apply to African-Americans and English surnames.
    Thank you, Milkyway!

    I say that I've only found these distant natives because, other than those 2 great grandparents I know little about, I have already traced the other lines back to Europe - except for the native component, of course. As my family is mostly composed of recent immigrants, there are only those 4 great-grandparents (2 who were half Portuguese, half native, and 2 who I don't know much about yet) where this could have come from. So I'm thinking that these two myterious ggp could be the carriers of high native ancestry. I'm having my paternal grandmother tested this week to see if I can find out more about it.

  11. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus191 View Post
    Just attach your RAW data, select FTDNA format, complete I'm not a robot CAPTCHA, then click predict, et voila, it should give you your Y-DNA prediction . It correctly predicted mine from an Ancestry file, in comparison to what 23andme gave.

    Regarding your results, I would say MyHeritage and FTDNA probably have the least accurate ethnicity indicators - the North African component is likely over estimated - North Africans are also descended from Spanish Visigoths and Basques who converted to Islam and left after the Inquisition so these companies may be wrongly assuming some markers are originally north African. Your GEDMATCH K13 and K15 results are fairly in line with Portuguese for the averages for these calculators, bar a slightly increased East Med and Red Sea and Native American - the former two of which are likely down to Sephardic Jewish-Converso ancestry which is very common in Latin Americans, and the latter some mestizo ancestry.

    K13 averages
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...nh-rCOj0c/edit

    K15 averages
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1872836177
    Thank you, Rufus! I hadn't found the upload option, I just saw the part where they asked me to "enter a list of SNP calls", so I panicked a little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tatals View Post
    Thank you all, guys. I'll keep watching you and learning.




    I'm sorry, I don't yet how to do that. Could you give me some guidance?
    Try this link:

    https://ytree.morleydna.com/extractFromAutosomal

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  14. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rober_tce View Post
    Associating only visigoths and basques to hispanic population as native components in first centuries in Middle Age isn't appropiate, even less in last centuries of Middle Age. There were more genetics components in native population of Hispania before muslims arrived.
    Anciently yes of course, there was Celtic, Roman, Phoenician and Greek input, but I did read that Moors thought of the two 'types' of Spanish as Visigothic Spanish and Basques for simplicity.

    Quote Originally Posted by rober_tce View Post
    I don't know what kind of samples have My Heritage or FTDNA, but associating a part of overestimated percentage of North Africa to hispanic muslims that migrated to Magreb between XV and XVI centuries it's something that I don't see much sense. In general, the Iberians have a North African genetic component, therefore it's normal for this type of evidence to appear, that the result is inflated or not, it's a problem with the algorithm itself.
    Well, it can happen, Ancestry for example got a large sample of French medical records, they thought this would be a good set of reference populations for French ethnicity in their algorithms, but they did not account for a large scale immigration of Spanish and even larger of Italian in the 100 years from 1870-1970. So what Ancestry then thought of as French DNA markers were in fact Italian and Spanish, and people of mostly Spanish and Italian ancestry were then told that they were a large % French.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus191 View Post
    Anciently yes of course, there was Celtic, Roman, Phoenician and Greek input, but I did read that Moors thought of the two 'types' of Spanish as Visigothic Spanish and Basques for simplicity.


    Well, it can happen, Ancestry for example got a large sample of French medical records, they thought this would be a good set of reference populations for French ethnicity in their algorithms, but they did not account for a large scale immigration of Spanish and even larger of Italian in the 100 years from 1870-1970. So what Ancestry then thought of as French DNA markers were in fact Italian and Spanish, and people of mostly Spanish and Italian ancestry were then told that they were a large % French.
    Perhaps in the case that you comment, having spent less than 200 years, and as companies tend to give more importance to the ancestors of the last 200 years, perhaps this mistake is easier that it could be produces. In the case of Spain and Portugal with five or four centuries since some muslims went out, it has already been enough time for immigrants from al Andalus to have mixed with the local population and therefore this type of error is not made, at least this is my thought.

    In my case, for example, MH doesn't detect North African by itself (it must be hidden in the Iberian category), however FTDNA, 24 Genetics, Ancestral K36 report, DNA Land and Living DNA do, and never in a percentage greater than 5 %, and my average North African is around 7% according to GEDmatch and Global 25 (adding the ancient and medieval genetics).

    In the case of this thread, it's normal for individuals with Portuguese ancestry to score that amount of North African in MH, and I don't think it's due to the error you are commenting; I know we think differently about this, both respectable positions of course.

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