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Thread: Was T a fellow traveler with early R1 and ANE groups?

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    Was T a fellow traveler with early R1 and ANE groups?

    I have noticed that T seems to be most frequent and diverse around the Caspian. It was also found in the steppe in the Neolithic. Since the South Caspian and Central Asian regions still seem to be a good candidate for where early R1 groups expanded from was it possible that this lineage was an important maternal component among them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    I have noticed that T seems to be most frequent and diverse around the Caspian. It was also found in the steppe in the Neolithic. Since the South Caspian and Central Asian regions still seem to be a good candidate for where early R1 groups expanded from was it possible that this lineage was an important maternal component among them?
    IMO, it is an far earlier traveler, more likely traveling with G into Europe. old lines of T are found in the alps (along with L ), baltic coast, East Mediterranean, Pontic areas........

    I agree with you that it is from the south caspian and central Asian areas if you mean T as being M70.............if you mean its basal M184, then IMO it would be zargos mountains/west iran. But only having the basal M184 and not M70 is only 4% of all the T in the world, while M70 makes up the other 96%


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    IMO, it is an far earlier traveler, more likely traveling with G into Europe. old lines of T are found in the alps (along with L ), baltic coast, East Mediterranean, Pontic areas........

    I agree with you that it is from the south caspian and central Asian areas if you mean T as being M70.............if you mean its basal M184, then IMO it would be zargos mountains/west iran. But only having the basal M184 and not M70 is only 4% of all the T in the world, while M70 makes up the other 96%
    EDIT : I think you are referring to MtDna T so ignore my post

    thanks


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    I have noticed that T seems to be most frequent and diverse around the Caspian. It was also found in the steppe in the Neolithic. Since the South Caspian and Central Asian regions still seem to be a good candidate for where early R1 groups expanded from was it possible that this lineage was an important maternal component among them?
    Haha, also thought you meant YDNA T too!
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 01-17-2014 at 12:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    It was also found in the steppe in the Neolithic.
    I think we should ignore the mtDNA T supposedly found in Dnieper-Donets. I have now been able to read Jeremy Newton's thesis, from which Lillie 2012 and Nikitin 2012 took their results. Newton recorded three T results, but all three were from incomplete sequences, so the designation to T is insecure. Lillie 2012 published two of them regardless, but Nikitin 2012 did not publish any of them.

    This does not mean that absolutely no T was present among the early farmers of what is now Ukraine. It very likely was there. T2a1b1 appears in the later Cucuteni-Trypillia culture there. It is T2a1b1 that appears in Andronovo.

    T appears to be one of a number of mtDNA haplogroups born in the Near East which travelled with Neolithic farmers. T, T2, T2b23a, and T2c appear in the LBK - the first farming culture of Central Europe. T2b appears in Neolithic Spain. T2e and T2f appear in the later Neolithic Rossen Culture of what is now Germany and adjacent areas. T2b3a appears in Neolithic Italy. Etc.
    Last edited by Jean M; 01-17-2014 at 01:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I think we should ignore the mtDNA T supposedly found in Dnieper-Donets. I have now been able to read Jeremy Newton's thesis, from which Lillie 2012 and Nikitin 2012 took their results. Newton recorded three T results, but all three were from incomplete sequences, so the designation to T is insecure. Lillie 2012 published two of them regardless, but Nikitin 2012 did not publish any of them.

    This does not mean that absolutely no T was present among the early farmers of what is now Ukraine. It very likely was there. T2a1b1 appears in the later Cucuteni-Trypillia culture there. It is T2a1b1 that appears in Andronovo.

    T appears to be one of a number of mtDNA haplogroups born in the Near East which travelled with Neolithic farmers. T, T2, T2b23a, and T2c appear in the LBK - the first farming culture of Central Europe. T2b appears in Neolithic Spain. T2e and T2f appear in the later Neolithic Rossen Culture of what is now Germany and adjacent areas. T2b3a appears in Neolithic Italy. Etc.
    What about the H sample from Dnieper-Donets? Is it confirmed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    What about the H sample from Dnieper-Donets? Is it confirmed?
    All the data is right here in my table of DNA from the European Neolithic: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/eur...ithicdna.shtml

    H is all over the place including Dnieper-Donets. Some of the H samples from the thesis failed to replicate, it seems. But others were fine.

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    J Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    All the data is right here in my table of DNA from the European Neolithic: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/eur...ithicdna.shtml

    H is all over the place including Dnieper-Donets. Some of the H samples from the thesis failed to replicate, it seems. But others were fine.
    The H among the Dnieper-Donets culture then most likely came from incoming farmers I should think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I think we should ignore the mtDNA T supposedly found in Dnieper-Donets.
    I wouldn't...

    The genetic influence of migrants can be detected by the appearance of a new mtDNA haplogroup that was absent in the populations preceding the migration wave. This new mtDNA haplogroup, a West Eurasian T haplogroup, was detected in the Late Krotovo population. The T haplogroup appears simultaneously (with a 15 % frequency) in the Krotovo and Andronovo groups, but was completely absent in all preceding Baraba populations. We therefore consider the appearance of the Haplogroup T-lineage as the most likely genetic marker of the Andronovo migration wave to the region.
    Population Dynamics in Prehistory and Early History (2012)

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  12. #10
    On a related note I see Krotovo is a part of a Seima Turbino. Would this make Seima Turbino IE speaking, at least partly? Or is all of it some sort of What some scholars call Andronovid (cultures formed as a result of a Andronvo expanding to the forest zone).

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