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Thread: A theory about the origin of E-V13

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    Laterally related to this topic. How common is Z2103 in other Balkan nations?
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Laterally related to this topic. How common is Z2103 in other Balkan nations?
    Greece is undertested and even the majority of the results we do have are not full sequences but there is a good amount of non L51 R1b. In Bulgaria PF7562 and Y5587 are the well represented branches there is also some Z2705 but we can be sure that all of it is from Bulgarian Macedonian migrants or random Albanians that slipped through. We also have two L277 results one from the NE and the other from the northern Shopluk but again I suspect those are likely also from Macedonia.

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    It's also interesting how a Greek talks about questioning our national narrative when Albanians still show more relationship with Illyrians than Romanians show with Dacians/Thracians or modern Greeks show with Ancient Greeks. If we didn't know enough about Greek language we would be questioning yours for sure.

    There is certainly nothing that suggests Romanians/Vlachs are descendants of Thracians or Dacians. In his book Kosovo: A Short History, the historian Noel Malcolm regards the Vlachs as Romanized Illyrians from the Dardania region. And he seems to of been quite right. Albanians possibly came from the Albanoi/Abroi tribe or some tribe from Northern Albania and expanded during the Roman period possibly as there are inscriptions of this tribe found in Skopje. Especially also when we take into consideration the Mat region is one of the oldest Albanian settlements.


    Anyway, let's not turn this into a nationalist topic again or have this thread locked just thought I'd throw that in.

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    To put some things into perspective, please keep in mind that one of the absolutely dominant lineages in Hungary/Pannonia, with a strong presence down into the West Balkans, was Middle Danubian Tumulus culture -> Middle Danubian Urnfield and even La Tene Celtic R-L2. It pops up time and time again, being also still at a significant level in the pre-Slavic Early Medieval Period. Yet today, look at the frequency of R-L2 in Europe:
    https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-L2/frequency

    Another representation:

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ba/54/31/b...-frequency.jpg

    Same here:
    https://www.yfull.com/branch-info/R-L2/#t5-tab

    Going by the modern distribution, frequency alone, one could conclude that R-L2 came from Britain to Hungary and its neighbourhood, but nothing could be further from the truth.

    Without the ancient DNA, we wouldn't know anything about this, especially not about the true dimension of this phenomenon in the prehistorical era. Yet we get a lot of samples, because in their Tumulus culture and in part in the Hallstatt and La Tene phase they did inhumate their dead. The Urnfield period was kind of an interlude for these groups, and before as well as afterwards, inhumation appears regularly. The same can't be said for the cultures mentioned before, even on the contrary.

    The only important data we can get from modern DNA is the phylogeny and branches, subclades. And the paper quoted before tells us that in Slovakia we find older branches of E-V13 - so definitely nothing of this contradicts what I said - doesn't prove it either. We just have to wait for real data from the really relevant groups and their neighbourhood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    Greece is undertested and even the majority of the results we do have are not full sequences but there is a good amount of non L51 R1b. In Bulgaria PF7562 and Y5587 are the well represented branches there is also some Z2705 but we can be sure that all of it is from Bulgarian Macedonian migrants or random Albanians that slipped through. We also have two L277 results one from the NE and the other from the northern Shopluk but again I suspect those are likely also from Macedonia.
    Would you happen to know of some resource that has z2103 as %of populations for the Balkans?

    Since this might sound off topic, I am mainly asking, because from what I see, beside the fact that E-V13 is the most common clade in Albanians, it is well represented virtually across the whole region with respectable %. As for J2b-L283 we know its virtually absent from non Albanian peoples in the Balkans. If one was to fill for z2103 too. It would add some perspective, albeit circumstantial to the proto-Albanian debate. As comparatively speaking, there are similar and differing unipaternals across modern Balkan peoples, and the comparison might hold the key.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 11-24-2022 at 02:04 PM.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    Greece is undertested and even the majority of the results we do have are not full sequences but there is a good amount of non L51 R1b. In Bulgaria PF7562 and Y5587 are the well represented branches there is also some Z2705 but we can be sure that all of it is from Bulgarian Macedonian migrants or random Albanians that slipped through. We also have two L277 results one from the NE and the other from the northern Shopluk but again I suspect those are likely also from Macedonia.
    Do you know how much L51 R1b is in the Balkans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Would you happen to know of some resource that has z2103 as %of populations for the Balkans?

    Since this might sound off topic, I am mainly asking, because from what I see, beside the fact that E-V13 is the most common clade in Albanians, it is well represented virtually across the whole region with respectable %. As for J2b-L283 we know its virtually absent from non Albanian peoples in the Balkans. If one was to fill for z2103 too. It would add some perspective, albeit circumstantial to the proto-Albanian debate. As comparatively speaking, there are similar and differing unipaternals across modern Balkan peoples, and the comparison might hold the key.
    The problem with Albanian E-V13 frequencies in particular is that while it has some diversity, a large fraction of the total number comes from just a few recent founder lineages. So we can assume E-V13 was not just in Proto-Albanians, but in the nearby region of the Balkans early on, but the total frequency might, but must not be, misleading. That's really something we have to investigate with ancient DNA, because some of these big Albanian founders start from scratch, with little interpretable context.

    The heatmaps from phylogeographer, while not ideal because of skewed sampling on YFull, are a good source for the frequencies.
    Last edited by Riverman; 11-24-2022 at 03:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The problem with Albanian E-V13 frequencies in particular is that while it has some diversity, a large fraction of the total number comes from just a few recent founder lineages. So we can assume E-V13 was not just in Proto-Albanians, but in the nearby region of the Balkans early on, but the total frequency might, but must not be, misleading. That's really something we have to investigate with ancient DNA, because some of these big Albanian founders start from scratch, with little interpretable context.

    The heatmaps from phylogeographer, while not ideal because of skewed sampling on YFull, are a good source for the frequencies.
    That is, part of, my point. E-V13 is very well represented across many nations in the Balkans. L283 not so much, but what about Z2103? These questions I am asking mainly for perspective. I know there was some debate over at the other forum, where a group of posters are adamant that J2b-L283 are assimilated Illyrians from Albanian V13s. But comparatively speaking it does not seem so. So what about the Z2103?
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    ― Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    That is, part of, my point. E-V13 is very well represented across many nations in the Balkans. L283 not so much, but what about Z2103? These questions I am asking mainly for perspective. I know there was some debate over at the other forum, where a group of posters are adamant that J2b-L283 are assimilated Illyrians from Albanian V13s. But comparatively speaking it does not seem so. So what about the Z2103?
    I think there are four groups which really stick out from their neighbourhood, in order of appearance:
    - Albanians
    - Armenians
    - Vlachs/Romanians
    - Southern Greeks

    So R-Z2103 really points to a specific distribution associated with Greco-Armenian and possibly Phrygian plus Dardanian-Paeonian (?) in my opinion, especially if considering the already tested groups and people in Antiquity.

    The interesting thing about E-V13 is that its higher frequencies are often but not always associated with these other haplogroups, especially if going North and into territories which were formerly Daco-Thracian core regions (like Eastern Slovakia-Transcarpathia).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Would you happen to know of some resource that has z2103 as %of populations for the Balkans?

    Since this might sound off topic, I am mainly asking, because from what I see, beside the fact that E-V13 is the most common clade in Albanians, it is well represented virtually across the whole region with respectable %. As for J2b-L283 we know its virtually absent from non Albanian peoples in the Balkans. If one was to fill for z2103 too. It would add some perspective, albeit circumstantial to the proto-Albanian debate. As comparatively speaking, there are similar and differing unipaternals across modern Balkan peoples, and the comparison might hold the key.
    according to this site below and its narrative ...J-L283 in albania came from the northern-balkans and migrated south to modern Albania.

    https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283/

    He mentions ancient J-L283 as origins with the Japodes/Iapodes tribe in northern Balkans , they where neighbours of the Liburnians and Histrians.

    He even mentions J-L283 in Etruria ( etruscans ).............

    It fits with the migration path in the 2021 english/croatian paper on "Illyrian" movement from north to south in the western Balkans.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+, Y349970+, Y79536+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna

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