A theory about the origin of E-V13

[Bruzmi]

That Celts and Illyrians were in Viminacium is not the issue, the issue is where all these other E-V13 Viminacium samples are supposed to come from. Surely not from people which being totally dominated by J-L283 and R1b respectively - I mean some yes, but only being "brought back" after having come from the Channelled Ware/Basarabi people in the first place. The bulk of a such a group can only be local or from the Dacians, Moesians and Thracians to the East.

The new samples from Viminacium targeted explicitly migrants and foreigners, whereas the main group of Balkan IA-like samples from the upcoming paper will be more local.

Moesians don't really exist, but let's & wait and see what the Southern Arc papers will publish.

[vasil]

Moesians don't really exist, but let's & wait and see what the Southern Arc papers will publish.

Whats going to change for you and your theories if we start calling the Moesi, Triballi instead and those existed for sure?

[Bruzmi]

Whats going to change for you and your theories if we start calling the Moesi, Triballi instead and those existed for sure?

The Moesi are a non-existent tribe, the Dardani, for whom the name was used, are a real people and represent actual archaeological and historical events which can help us explain E-V13. The rest will be seen when the studies get published. Still, we got our first autosomal profiles from the Roman/pre-Slavic era of the Balkans and we can compare them to at least get some questions answered.

[vasil]

The Moesi are a non-existent tribe, the Dardani, for whom the name was used, are a real people and represent actual archaeological and historical events which can help us explain E-V13. The rest will be seen when the studies get published. Still, we got our first autosomal profiles from the Roman/pre-Slavic era of the Balkans and we can compare them to at least get some questions answered.

Even IF I agree with you that the Romans made up the Balkan Moesi they didnt use for the terriory of the Dardani but the Triballi ie Morava/Iskar region.

[Riverman]

Even IF I agree with you that the Romans made up the Balkan Moesi they didnt use for the terriory of the Dardani but the Triballi ie Morava/Iskar region.

And the Dardani didn't live or fully replace the area around Viminacium. These were Dacian/Thracian tribes with additional Illyrian and Celtic admixture. We know by now how the early Illyrians and the Celts looked, they won't have brought such a massive influx of E-V13, even less so up the Tisza, where it was found in the Avar and Hungarian period as well. The Tisza-Danube territory was Thracian/Dacian since the MBA-LBA.

[rafc]

according to qpadm, these are the same population (they can one-way model each other)

MJ12 Thraco-Cimmerian
MDA_Scythians (without the 2 most steppe-shifted)
Glavanesti BA outlier
DA198 Hungarian Scythian
Greece_Logkas_MBA
Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean.SG (the 2 most southern samples, which show some Minoan-like influence)
Hungary_Maros_EBA.SG

BGR_IA and SZ19 from EMA Hungary form a separate population from these.

Croatia EIA and MBA are also separate, of course.

R1 proto-Villanovan passes as both Illyrian and Thracian.

neither Illyrians nor Thracians show continuity with Vucedol I3499. (they are not the same population at least, there could be some ancestry)

Interesting! It also nicely aligns to what was discussed here before. BGR_IA and S19 are that EEF rich cluster which also seems well represented at Viminacium (and partially in Avar age Hungary). The big group is the middle of the Balkans IA cline, which was also present at Viminacium and Avar age Hungary, and then we have HVR_IA which represents the other end of the cline where it meets NW-Balkans groups.

[capsian]

I didn't notice it yesterday, but the PCA of the new study seems to imply that the "local" Roman Balkan cluster from northern Serbia/Croatia to Montenegro is autosomally similar.

do you have autsomal remain SE-114

[rafc]

Wrong thread.

[capsian]

Wrong thread.

what this wrong thread

[Bruzmi]

R3745 is the first published E-V13 in the coastal western Balkans in antiquity, one of the oldest published E-V13 in the Balkans and the oldest sample from Roman Iader. A brief summary of the historical context of the area.



The inhabitants of Iader known as Iadestini, Iadastini (Latin), Iadasinoi (Greek). Iader is located in southern Liburnia and is one of the areas of Liburnia where Illyrian tribes had moved since the Early Iron Age. Thus, the Iadestini are referred to as one of the Illyrian people in southern Liburnia in ancient sources.

‘Illyrians’ in ancient ethnographic discourse
Danijel Dzino
Dans Dialogues d'histoire ancienne 2014/2 (40/2), pages 45 à 65

The Iadastini are mentioned for the first time in the 4th century BCE.

Diodorus provides very valuable details of the Greek colonisation of the central Adriatic islands Vis (Issa) and Hvar (Pharos) in the early fourth century BC, corresponding with the expansion of Syracusan ambitions in the Adriatic under Dionysius I. He recorded the Greek conflict at Pharos with the indigenous population from the mainland in 385/4 BC, whom he calls ‘Illyrians’ . These Illyrians might well be the Iadasinoi from the Liburnian city of Iader (modern Zadar), mentioned on the inscription found on the island of Hvar, which celebrates the triumph of the Pharians over the ‘Iadasinoi and their allies’. There is also an inscription from the central Adriatic island of Vis dated to the fourth century BC, showing that the indigenous population from the mainland were seen as ‘Illyrians’ by the Greek colonists. The inscription celebrates one Kalias, who died fighting the indigenous population. The term ‘Illyrians’ is used twice, once as ‘Illyrian ship’ (or land) and the second time as ‘Illyrian land’ (Ἰλλυριον γῆς)

In the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax:

In Müller’s edition of Pseudo-Scylax from GGM, the inhabitants of the coast between the Liburni and Chaonia are called ‘Illyrians’: the Hierastamnoi (Iadasinoi), Boullinoi, Hyllaei, Nestoi, Manioi, Autariatas Enkheleis, Taulantioi. The term ἔθνος Ἰλλυρικών (or Ἰλλυρίων) is used generally – describing Illyrians as a wider community, while the smaller groups such as Bulinoi, Manioi, Autariatae, Enchelei, Taulantii are labelled as ‘Illyrian’ (or ‘Illyric’, as Shipley translates it) communities.

(Map from Sasel-Kos (2013), The 'great lake' and the Autariatai in Pseudo-Skylax)