Page 44 of 57 FirstFirst ... 34424344454654 ... LastLast
Results 431 to 440 of 566

Thread: A theory about the origin of E-V13

  1. #431
    Banned
    Posts
    762
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    EV13>Z5018>FGC33625
    mtDNA (M)
    U1a1a

    Albania Kosovo
    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Thank you for proving once again that you are into revisionist pseudo-scientific nonsense, in this instance the point is what? You are not satisfied with the age of Dardanians at Troy being 1200 BC, so it must be extended to 1300, 1400 BC?? It seems you are attempting to match Dardanians with the TMRCA of Z5018.. In order to support your fore conclusion which has "determined" that "Albanoids" are Dardanians of Troy and they are E-V13/E-Z5018.. Invoking pseudo-science to support a pseudo-scientific "conclusion". Well done.
    There is nothing pseudoscientific about the lecture. The Dardanoi in Anatolia, the Dardi in Messapi, and the Dardani in the Balkans, have plenty of evidence to have a phylogenetic relationship, i.e, descending from a common ancestor. Because we know from egyptian sources that they must have at least already been in the Troad in 1270 BC, this means the phylogenetic ancestor of the Dardi/Dardanoi/Dardani must have at least had its expansion a hundred or couple of hundred years earlier than 1270 BC.

    You are the one that is obsessed with supporting your fore conclusions, based on incomplete data and personal projections based on your own strange obsessions which are apparent to anybody that has seen more than a few of your comments.

    You are so quick to give your "opinions" on what others' motivations supposedly are, but have never stopped to question yourself and interrogate yourself and why you are so obsessed with certain things you always comment about... I'll spare you the humiliation as it is obvious to anybody with eyes to see.

  2. #432
    Registered Users
    Posts
    230
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Like the previous thread about the "origins of E-V13" (which moderators rightfully closed) this one has descended into "alternative theories" without any (bio)archaeological or linguistic evidence. That the papers being cited (in the few rare instances that papers are actually being cited) were published 40+ years ago is telling in itself. Unfortunately, internet fora are still being used as a hub for "alternative theories" and it seems that only strong moderation stops such phenomena. Setting aside the "conclusions" about large areas based on 1-2 aDNA samples for periods of hundreds of years, I want to focus once more on the "Dorian" theories.

    About the latest "Dorian" theory, I'll repeat what is obvious to anyone who doesn't engage in the production of "alternative theories". There never was a "Brnjica culture" (see here, no cluster of sites can be identified as part of a single "Brnjica group") but for the sake of argument let's assume that the site of Brnjica belonged to the Hisar group, just north of Kosovo.

    Dorians spoke Doric Greek, a dialect which emerged from Proto-Greek in close geographical relation to other dialects which emerged from Proto-Greek. For the ancestors of the Dorians to have been anywhere close to Brnjica or the wider Hisar group, Mycenaean-speakers and Aeolic-speakers (influenced by both Mycanean and Doric Greek) must have been in Kosovo, North Macedonia etc. That is not the case. These dialects evolved both in contact and divergence on the Greek mainland, nowhere north of Macedonia proper. Richardo Janko (2013) has written an interesting chapter in Studies in Ancient Greek Dialects: From Central Greece to the Black Sea about Proto-Doric, Proto-Mycenaean, Proto-Aetolic:

    protoDoric.jpg


    Janko.jpg

    The only reason why the Dorians are displaced to the central Balkans (and proto-Dorians to the ... Romania-Bulgaria border) from their historical homeland in these "alternative theories" is because the people who spread such "theories" want to find a convenient way to explain how E-V13 appeared in Greece since it hasn't been found in BA samples so far. Unfortunately, reality (as always) is not so simple. E-V13 was not brought by the Dorians in one massive invasion (which never happened) .

    If the transition era Dorians carried some E-V13, it was already present in northern Greece or a few clans from the fringes of the Greek mainland joined them. This is unknown for now, but unlikely in my opinion. What is more likely is that E-V13 gradually spread to mainland Greece with migrations throughout antiquity to today. After all, the only real individual who we know for a fact that he was named Illyros was a gladiator in Mytilene and there have been found far more people who identified in ancient Greek as Dardaneus/issa in ancient Athens, than in Dardania itself. But semi-mythic "warriors" are always much more appealing subjects for "alternative theories" than simple Paleo-Balkan migrants.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Bruzmi For This Useful Post:

     peloponnesian (06-14-2021)

  4. #433
    Registered Users
    Posts
    294
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    A term I invented? This is a term used by linguists like Eric Hamp, Martin Huld, etc. I didn't invent it.
    OK, I see they mentioned it. Take that back. But regarding the Albanian I read only Orel and Matzinger, as I should.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    There is nothing pseudoscientific about the lecture. The Dardanoi in Anatolia, the Dardi in Messapi, and the Dardani in the Balkans, have plenty of evidence to have a phylogenetic relationship, i.e, descending from a common ancestor. Because we know from egyptian sources that they must have at least already been in the Troad in 1270 BC, this means the phylogenetic ancestor of the Dardi/Dardanoi/Dardani must have at least had its expansion a hundred or couple of hundred years earlier than 1270 BC.
    Troyan war did not happen in 1400 BC. Although such connections between all those groups were proposed, archeologically there were problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    You are so quick to give your "opinions" on what others' motivations supposedly are,
    I am, and I am mostly correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    but have never stopped to question yourself and interrogate yourself and why you are so obsessed with certain things you always comment about... I'll spare you the humiliation as it is obvious to anybody with eyes to see.
    I comment on the origin of my hg. And I do possess vastly superior knowledge of genetics in comparison to you. You have been posted as an admin on the DNA project for ethnic Albanians from Kosovo and Macedonia, despite the fact that you wouldn't know how to distinguish V22 from V13 or V12. You know absolutely nothing of DNA, be it Y-DNA, auDNA etc..

  5. #434
    Registered Users
    Posts
    781
    Sex
    Location
    Belgrade
    Ethnicity
    Slavic
    Nationality
    Serb
    Y-DNA (P)
    PH908>A5913>A22312

    Serbia Montenegro Bosnia and Herzegovina Croatia Split-Dalmatia
    Ok, which one of your statements is false, because they contradict each other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    In other words, it's very possible that the formation date of E-L618 is the same or close to it's TMRCA dating.
    or

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I know you've done your homework therefore I'm sure you are pretty well aware that all those SNPs can't occur at once.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Pribislav For This Useful Post:

     leorcooper19 (06-14-2021),  Michał (06-19-2021)

  7. #435
    Registered Users
    Posts
    294
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Like the previous thread about the "origins of E-V13" (which moderators rightfully closed) this one has descended into "alternative theories" without any (bio)archaeological or linguistic evidence. That the papers being cited (in the few rare instances that papers are actually being cited) were published 40+ years ago is telling in itself. Unfortunately, internet fora are still being used as a hub for "alternative theories" and it seems that only strong moderation stops such phenomena. Setting aside the "conclusions" about large areas based on 1-2 aDNA samples for periods of hundreds of years, I want to focus once more on the "Dorian" theories.

    About the latest "Dorian" theory, I'll repeat what is obvious to anyone who doesn't engage in the production of "alternative theories". There never was a "Brnjica culture" (see here, no cluster of sites can be identified as part of a single "Brnjica group") but for the sake of argument let's assume that the site of Brnjica belonged to the Hisar group, just north of Kosovo.

    Dorians spoke Doric Greek, a dialect which emerged from Proto-Greek in close geographical relation to other dialects which emerged from Proto-Greek. For the ancestors of the Dorians to have been anywhere close to Brnjica or the wider Hisar group, Mycenaean-speakers and Aeolic-speakers (influenced by both Mycanean and Doric Greek) must have been in Kosovo, North Macedonia etc. That is not the case. These dialects evolved both in contact and divergence on the Greek mainland, nowhere north of Macedonia proper. Richardo Janko (2013) has written an interesting chapter in Studies in Ancient Greek Dialects: From Central Greece to the Black Sea about Proto-Doric, Proto-Mycenaean, Proto-Aetolic:

    protoDoric.jpg


    Janko.jpg

    The only reason why the Dorians are displaced to the central Balkans (and proto-Dorians to the ... Romania-Bulgaria border) from their historical homeland in these "alternative theories" is because the people who spread such "theories" want to find a convenient way to explain how E-V13 appeared in Greece since it hasn't been found in BA samples so far. Unfortunately, reality (as always) is not so simple. E-V13 was not brought by the Dorians in one massive invasion (which never happened) .

    If the transition era Dorians carried some E-V13, it was already present in northern Greece or a few clans from the fringes of the Greek mainland joined them. This is unknown for now, but unlikely in my opinion. What is more likely is that E-V13 gradually spread to mainland Greece with migrations throughout antiquity to today. After all, the only real individual who we know for a fact that he was named Illyros was a gladiator in Mytilene and there have been found far more people who identified in ancient Greek as Dardaneus/issa in ancient Athens, than in Dardania itself. But semi-mythic "warriors" are always much more appealing subjects for "alternative theories" than simple Paleo-Balkan migrants.
    Mr. Bruzmi AKA "Brnjica doesn't exist".

    We've been through this already. Obviously there is a tendency of some modern Kosovo Albanian authors to disprove of Brnjica existence because that violates the phantom non-existent 3000 year Kosova/Dardania continuity. There isn't 300 years of continuity for majority, and that continuity is owing to the chaos in the Ottoman empire which allowed the Ottoman Albanians to spread. There were some Arbanas katuns serving monasteries 700 years ago, most of them of course migrated from the South. So one has to take a more deep look to discern facts from this Albanian proto-Chronist tendency. Not condemning anything/anyone, those are various strings of historical events, just its pointless to seek such a continuity.

    You also when I mentioned the Southern Albanian Devolli group gave examples of some Iron Age Glasinac influences in the area, trying to imply there was no difference between the two. Ofc those were subsequent Mati related invaders who likely spread their language to the South. Your motivation here is again to oppose any idea that on ethnic Albanian territory there is some plurality of different cultures.

    Different archeologists have said something about two cultures that even have migratory connections (Brnjica-Devolli) and you deny their existence. What do these have in common? They spoil the uniform Illyrian Glasinac-Mati picture. So the only logical explanation is that you consider an affront (to Albanian unity) some cultural heterogeneity in the area. No, the Albanian people are unchanged completely since the LBA, no MBA, they are the most ancient people in the universe.. Lets get to the point, instead of wasting time going in circles.. It is blatantly clear what is your background here. And you are of the same kind that has "expelled" Matzinger out of Albania in this instance I posted.

    You are a proto-Chronist or Nativist. I do not (want to) understand you proto-Chronists (or Nativists) which is due to ideological differences. I find it dishonorable to even mention such a thing let alone invoke it. Most are not like that ofc..

    Let's say there is no Brnjica group. Then, I say most Albanian V13 arrived to Albania 1000-1500 as Bessoi of Gotftried Schramm. Plenty of such candidates in Albanians already. You'd prefer that? Be my guest.

    You once though mentioned Enchelei as some hub for E-V13. Is it not odd Enchelei were suppoosed to be around that Southern group whose distinctiveness you also denied.

    I didn't mention Dorians as serious contenders. Just mentioned half-jokingly something from wikipedia. Much of what you say here makes sense. That Dorians were not migrants from that far to the North etc.

    Good thing actually is that Pshenichevo finds which are ofc implicitly Girla-Mare finds, make things very very difficult for "Illyrian V13". The only thing E-V13 seems related to is whatever Girla-Mare was (Etruscan? whatever etc.) and Thracian. Anything else is just an incident.
    Last edited by Huban; 06-14-2021 at 01:06 AM. Reason: addition

  8. #436
    Registered Users
    Posts
    589

    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    Ok, which one of your statements is false, because they contradict each other?



    or
    They don't contradict each other because I'm not talking specifically about the subclade defined by the SNP L618 and 41 other SNPs as per YFULL.

    I'm talking specifically about the SNP defined as L618 and for which at least two Neolithic EEF samples were found positive.

    Unless you think L618 and all the other 41 SNPs that represent the time between TMRCA of the subclade they define and TMRCA of their parent subclade E-Z1919 occured at once?
    Of course that's not possible because:
    TMRCA(subclade Z1919 + 5 other SNPs) - TMRCA(subclade L618 + 41 other SNPs) = Bottleneck between L618 and the other 41 SNPs, or

    11900 - 8100 = 3800 , or

    L618 and the other 41 SNPs that define the subclade shortly known as just E-L618 represent a Bottleneck of 3800 years or the period between 11900 ybp and 8100 ybp.

    So, when did the mutation or the SNP known as L618 occured or formed exactly and what's contradictory in what I said?

    If you can't answer that question then restrain from replying just for the sake of it otherwise we are not having very productive conversation.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Aspar For This Useful Post:

     Riverman (06-14-2021)

  10. #437
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,114
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    If the transition era Dorians carried some E-V13, it was already present in northern Greece or a few clans from the fringes of the Greek mainland joined them. This is unknown for now, but unlikely in my opinion. What is more likely is that E-V13 gradually spread to mainland Greece with migrations throughout antiquity to today. After all, the only real individual who we know for a fact that he was named Illyros was a gladiator in Mytilene and there have been found far more people who identified in ancient Greek as Dardaneus/issa in ancient Athens, than in Dardania itself. But semi-mythic "warriors" are always much more appealing subjects for "alternative theories" than simple Paleo-Balkan migrants.
    I think that no one claimed that all or even the total majority of Dorians must have been E-V13. What I myself suggested was that with Dorians came the first clans and larger numbers of E-V13 too Greece most likely. That there was a constant exchange and gene flow after this initial event at the LBA-EIA transition, is evident and that a lot of the E-V13 in modern Greeks came with other people, but especially Thracians, also. That Dorians carried some E-V13 and did so more than preceding or other Greek mainland-island people before is a reasonable hypothesis, but nothing more. Without more data there won't be a final verdict.
    What we do know based on the available ancient DNA already is that E-V13 appeared in most of the Balkans and Greece not before the LBA-EIA transition. This means we are in search of potential candidates among the known archaeological cultures which could explain such a fairly rapid and massive replacement event, which is just a logical conclusion for the most likely scenario.

  11. #438
    Banned
    Posts
    762
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    EV13>Z5018>FGC33625
    mtDNA (M)
    U1a1a

    Albania Kosovo
    Arkwright believed the -nth- in some Greek place names (ascribed to "pre-greek") is of a Messapic language:

    "For in Messapian, -t- before -i- turns to -θ-"

    Messapic. Brentium -> Brenthe
    Messapic. Salentini -> Salynthos
    Phrygian. Berekyntia -> Berekynthos

    Both the Arcadia region and Zakynthos have traditions of being ruled or founded by Dardanus, or the son of Dardanus (Zakynthos).

    And apart from Arcadia, the majorly coastal distribution of these -nth- toponyms suggest colonisation by sea, not any deep inland presence.

    So specifically Arcadia, who has this tradition of being ruled by Dardanians is the only one with a more inland presence of these toponyms.

    So yet again, Dardanians, and their expansion left a resounding impact that echoes in the myths and legends around the balkans, troy, and italy.

    And they seem to be linked with Messapics. The truth fits together across many domains. E-V13 is related to Dardanus.




  12. #439
    Banned
    Posts
    762
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    EV13>Z5018>FGC33625
    mtDNA (M)
    U1a1a

    Albania Kosovo
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Arkwright believed the -nth- in some Greek place names (ascribed to "pre-greek") is of a Messapic language:

    "For in Messapian, -t- before -i- turns to -θ-"

    Messapic. Brentium -> Brenthe
    Messapic. Salentini -> Salynthos
    Phrygian. Berekyntia -> Berekynthos

    Both the Arcadia region and Zakynthos have traditions of being ruled or founded by Dardanus, or the son of Dardanus (Zakynthos).

    And apart from Arcadia, the majorly coastal distribution of these -nth- toponyms suggest colonisation by sea, not any deep inland presence.

    So specifically Arcadia, who has this tradition of being ruled by Dardanians is the only one with a more inland presence of these toponyms.

    So yet again, Dardanians, and their expansion left a resounding impact that echoes in the myths and legends around the balkans, troy, and italy.

    And they seem to be linked with Messapics. The truth fits together across many domains. E-V13 is related to Dardanus.
    This may also be further explanation for autosomal affinities between Albanians and Peloponnese Greeks. It may not be just due to the high medieval Arvanite populations, but might even have deeper structure, related to Dardanian colonists.

  13. #440
    Registered Users
    Posts
    781
    Sex
    Location
    Belgrade
    Ethnicity
    Slavic
    Nationality
    Serb
    Y-DNA (P)
    PH908>A5913>A22312

    Serbia Montenegro Bosnia and Herzegovina Croatia Split-Dalmatia
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    They don't contradict each other because I'm not talking specifically about the subclade defined by the SNP L618 and 41 other SNPs as per YFULL.

    I'm talking specifically about the SNP defined as L618 and for which at least two Neolithic EEF samples were found positive.

    So, when did the mutation or the SNP known as L618 occured or formed exactly and what's contradictory in what I said?
    So you're saying all this time you were talking about L618 SNP, and not about the L618 clade/level? Why would you talk about formation and TMRCA dates of a single SNP, in a clade with 40 more SNPs at the same level? Since they are all currently at the same level, by definition we can't know their chronological order. And it's beyond me why are you singling out L618, it is just one randomly picked SNP to name a subclade, it could've very well been any of the other 40 SNPs.
    Last edited by Pribislav; 06-14-2021 at 05:17 PM.

  14. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Pribislav For This Useful Post:

     leorcooper19 (06-14-2021),  Michał (06-19-2021),  rafc (06-14-2021),  Scythoslav (06-14-2021)

Page 44 of 57 FirstFirst ... 34424344454654 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Arabic Q-m25 cluster origin theory
    By Afshar in forum Q
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 06-17-2020, 07:45 PM
  2. Mycenaean South Caucausian Origin theory
    By Johane Derite in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-24-2019, 04:03 PM
  3. Out of Africa: a theory in crisis
    By firemonkey in forum Human Evolution
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-29-2018, 11:46 AM
  4. Ancestral origin and Haplogroup origin
    By Smilelover in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-17-2016, 10:26 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •