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Thread: A theory about the origin of E-V13

  1. #1151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    We already have a good idea about the Albanian and English subclades and diversity, which is good, but its much worse for other people.
    And the modern local frequency is not decisive for the origin in the past. Especially not if a country with a low frequency has still millions of carriers.
    Without testing, it's unresolved.
    On FTDNA Albanians are not as overrepresented, but the English even more so than on YFULL.
    Serbs lack the density for WGS/BigY, which is a problem for their exact position on the trees. I just wrote about YFULL, which most use for the maps.
    If there a particular reason why some people/countries are not using yfull more? Is yfull the most reliable source that looks into genetics? If so, is it possible that for whatever agenda some people/countries prefer to use different sources to mask their overall results?

    Also off topic but why dont they allow genetic tests in france? Such a weird thing to ban
    Last edited by ShpataEMadhe; 09-21-2021 at 04:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    If there a particular reason why some people/countries are not using yfull more? Is yfull the most reliable source that looks into genetics? If so, is it possible that for whatever agenda some people/countries prefer to use different sources to mask their real results?

    Also off topic but why dont they allow genetic tests in france? Such a weird thing to ban
    The problem is rather a lack of interest, money and knowledge, as well as trust. Albanians seem to have more personal and national interest for testing yDNA.
    The English and Americans are just numbers, money and more trust into companies, as well as unknown origins for the Americans.
    Since both FTDNA and YFULL want money now, to get you there, most seem just to lack the motivation and knowledge to upload.

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  4. #1153
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    Could some folks here fill me in on the current theories for when and how E-V13 carriers entered Greece? In the LBA? IA "Dark Ages"? Classical period? Even after? Many thanks.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Could some folks here fill me in on the current theories for when and how E-V13 carriers entered Greece? In the LBA? IA "Dark Ages"? Classical period? Even after? Many thanks.
    Since we lack the ancient DNA nobody really knows and all the periods you mentioned might have brought new E-V13 carriers.
    However, we know that before Channelled Ware and Psenichevo-Basarabi, which seems to have grown out of it, there seems to have been very little if any E-V13 in the Balkans, afterwards the region was packed.
    It seems therefore reasonable to connect Channelled Ware people, which introduced Naue II swords, iron weapons, cremation burials in urns and weapon hoards, plus the typical black burnished, channelled and knobbed pottery styles, among other things, to the Balkans and Aegean, with E-V13.
    If that's correct we can say that the earliest V13 appeared between 1.300-1.000 in Greece in greater numbers.
    Whether that archaeological influence led to a higher frequency of V13 that early is unknown, but I would guess so. Since there was a constant influx of Thracians later, its impossible to tell what caused the rise over time and we also have no data on later Iron Age and classical Greeks.
    Channelled Ware groups had a significant impact on Greece, but more indirectly, so the genetic contribution is impossible to estimate without more data. Since LBA V13 could be anywhere between 1 - 40 percent in Northern Greece, nobody knows.
    Last edited by Riverman; 09-21-2021 at 07:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    If there a particular reason why some people/countries are not using yfull more? Is yfull the most reliable source that looks into genetics? If so, is it possible that for whatever agenda some people/countries prefer to use different sources to mask their overall results?
    The issue is mainly in the lack of NGS. I guess that's part financially, although the cost of Big Y is really not that high anymore. It also seems that many people from the Balkans prefer to test at these 'national' projects, even at a higher cost. Someone cited the Bosnian project here, which I did not yet know. They offer an Y37 test at €169, which would be 102€ at FTDNA (92€ when on sale). Likewise the NGS test advertised is €499 (on sale from €599), while big Y700 is €383 (€340 when on sale). That NGS test is Whole Genome, but who cares about other chromosomes than the Y

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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Could some folks here fill me in on the current theories for when and how E-V13 carriers entered Greece? In the LBA? IA "Dark Ages"? Classical period? Even after? Many thanks.

    I have a "cousin" in Sicily which is distant 2600 years from me. I believe his ancestor reached South Italy before 400 BCE. Plus, there are several other examples which indicate E-V13 clades got to South Italy before 500 BCE (from the Balkans).
    If E-V13 reached South Italy before 500 BCE, then I would be free to say E-V13 entered Greece before that and even before 700 BCE. But as Riverman wrote, it is not easy to estimate how much of todays E-V13 in Greece descend from that particular Early Iron Age arrival.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    The issue is mainly in the lack of NGS. I guess that's part financially, although the cost of Big Y is really not that high anymore. It also seems that many people from the Balkans prefer to test at these 'national' projects, even at a higher cost. Someone cited the Bosnian project here, which I did not yet know. They offer an Y37 test at €169, which would be 102€ at FTDNA (92€ when on sale). Likewise the NGS test advertised is €499 (on sale from €599), while big Y700 is €383 (€340 when on sale). That NGS test is Whole Genome, but who cares about other chromosomes than the Y
    hey sorry so far i see that the price of Y-big is still exorbitant compared to the whole genome

  13. #1158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Some time ago while going through some Ottoman defters, I noticed something which attracted my attention. Various villages named Darda, Dardas. I used to think this was problematic because of some claims about earlier *dzarda/*dzardza, but in Orel I see the earlier form is *darda. I used to ask myself why are there so many pear-named villages in Albania. Many of these places no longer exist, though they existed 500+ years ago in Albania. So I came back to them, and I see they are roughly around the old Arbanon. And I looked for them in Shkoder area, and there are none there. That's a good sign. I see one of them is from the Mat area (no longer exists). So we know early Albanians are clearly connected to Arbanon, and could these Darda's be an indicator of a tribal group which settled the Arbanon in Early Medieval times and left traces there, that called themselves Dardanians?

    Other than Bessus, there were various LA people in Dardania carrying the designation Dardanus. So I'd propose

    - Bessoi , political leaders of the Late Antiquity Shop "Paleo-Balkanism"
    -- Dardanii, composed of:
    --- Illyrian Dardanii
    --- Dardanian Dardanii (connected to Dardanians from Troy, it is likely Pshenichevo people, tied with E-V13 carried with them some original Dardanians to Troy, Pshenichevo were present at Troy and they were present in Dardania)

    I would suggest that the late Bessian archeological culture included also the Dardanii.

    In 7th, 8th century AD as proposed by Schramm they move to Arbanon in Bulgarian expansion related events. These people possibly under umbrella of Bessoi still primarily called themselves Dardanians if these Darda's are anything to go by.
    Toponyms or place names stemming from the Albanian dardh (pear), from Proto-Albanian *dardā, are historically attested around Shkodra and its environs. For example the settlement of Dardha is recorded in the Venetian cadastre of Scutari (1416-17) and neighboured the modern village of Ashta on the banks of the Drin. The settlement is remembered in the form of a landmark in the latter modern settlement as Qaf-Dardha. As for the Ottoman defter of 1485, the anthroponym Dardo is attested in the village of Morina which we can gather was the settlement of origin for the eponymous tribe, however it is not clear to me if this name can be linked back linguistically to the root *dardā. The main point is that settlements derived from this root were indeed historically present in these areas of northern Albania and are remembered in modern times as toponyms of landmarks. There are also plenty of modern settlements in the north of the country from this root such as Dardhe (north-east of Puka) and Dardhe-Shosh (north-east of Shkodra, Shoshi). Even Dardha in Koja, eastern Montenegro.

    Also the borders of Arbanon as a politico-geographic entity extended beyond its borders under the rulership of the archons and princes of the Progoni fis between the twelfth and thirteenth centuries CE. For example the region of Pulati or Pulti which historically extended over northern Albania is recorded as having been a part of Arbanon prior to its capture by Stefan Nemanja ca. 1198. Demetrio Progoni in a correspondence to Pope Innocent III in 1208 declared the lands between Shkodra, Durrs, Ohrid and Prizren as rightfully belonging to his domain or Arbanon (regionis montosae inter Scodram, Dyrrachium, Achridam et Prizrenam sitae).

    A hypothetical arrival of the ancestors of the Albanians into the territory of modern Albania as late as the seventh or eighth century CE has no historical or even linguistic basis. For starters there is no documentation of such a migration ever taking place during this time period and the Albanians when they are mentioned for the first time in the historical record appear as a well-established group in the region rather than the descendants of migrants and settlers from elsewhere. As for linguistic evidence against such a hypothesis, we can firstly turn to the fact that the hydronym of Mat for the river of the same name is attested in the Vibius Sequester (fourth or fifth century CE) as Mathis (Mathis Dyrrachi non longe a Lisso). This hydronym/toponym is of clear Proto-Albanian origins and so is strong evidence towards the fact that by this period of time at least the ancestors of the Albanians were well-established in the region. Not only this, but certain city or place names in Albania show Tosk rhotacism which we know developed prior to the arrival of the Slavs during the sixth century and onwards. For example, the city of Vlora in the south-west is referred to in the Geg dialects as Vlon or Vlona both ultimately from the Ancient Greek Auln (Αυλών). Later the city of Kruja in north-central Albania is recorded for the first time in Byzantine documents of the early-seventh century CE in the form of Kroai (Κροαί). This toponym is derived from the Albanian krua (water spring) which Orel derived from the Proto-Albanian *krāna (earlier *krasna).
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 09-22-2021 at 12:45 AM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Toponyms or place names stemming from the Albanian dardh (pear), from Proto-Albanian *dardā, are historically attested around Shkodra and its environs. For example the settlement of Dardha is recorded in the Venetian cadastre of Scutari (1416-17) and neighboured the modern village of Ashta on the banks of the Drin. The settlement is remembered in the form of a landmark in the latter modern settlement as Qaf-Dardha. As for the Ottoman defter of 1485, the anthroponym Dardo is attested in the village of Morina which we can gather was the settlement of origin for the eponymous tribe, however it is not clear to me if this name can be linked back linguistically to the root *dardā. The main point is that settlements derived from this root were indeed historically present in these areas of northern Albania and are remembered in modern times as toponyms of landmarks. There are also plenty of modern settlements in the north of the country from this root such as Dardhe (north-east of Puka) and Dardhe-Shosh (north-east of Shkodra, Shoshi). Even Dardha in Koja, eastern Montenegro.

    Also the borders of Arbanon as a politico-geographic entity extended beyond its borders under the rulership of the archons and princes of the Progoni fis between the twelfth and thirteenth centuries CE. For example the region of Pulati or Pulti which historically extended over northern Albania is recorded as having been a part of Arbanon prior to its capture by Stefan Nemanja ca. 1198. Demetrio Progoni in a correspondence to Pope Innocent III in 1208 declared the lands between Shkodra, Durrs, Ohrid and Prizren as rightfully belonging to his domain or Arbanon (regionis montosae inter Scodram, Dyrrachium, Achridam et Prizrenam sitae).

    A hypothetical arrival of the ancestors of the Albanians into the territory of modern Albania as late as the seventh or eighth century CE has no historical or even linguistic basis. For starters there is no documentation of such a migration ever taking place during this time period and the Albanians when they are mentioned for the first time in the historical record appear as a well-established group in the region rather than the descendants of migrants and settlers from elsewhere. As for linguistic evidence against such a hypothesis, we can firstly turn to the fact that the hydronym of Mat for the river of the same name is attested in the Vibius Sequester (fourth or fifth century CE) as Mathis (Mathis Dyrrachi non longe a Lisso). This hydronym/toponym is of clear Proto-Albanian origins and so is strong evidence towards the fact that by this period of time at least the ancestors of the Albanians were well-established in the region. Not only this, but certain city or place names in Albania show Tosk rhotacism which we know developed prior to the arrival of the Slavs during the sixth century and onwards. For example, the city of Vlora in the south-west is referred to in the Geg dialects as Vlon or Vlona both ultimately from the Ancient Greek Auln (Αυλών). Later the city of Kruja in north-central Albania is recorded for the first time in Byzantine documents of the early-seventh century CE in the form of Kroai (Κροαί). This toponym is derived from the Albanian krua (water spring) which Orel derived from the Proto-Albanian *krāna (earlier *krasna).

    does it name the owners in the cadastre of Scutari ? ...............where they Albanian or Bosnian?


    The term Cadastre is related to Venetian (1185) catastico ("list of citizens possessing a taxable property")


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

  16. #1160
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    does it name the owners in the cadastre of Scutari ? ...............where they Albanian or Bosnian?


    The term Cadastre is related to Venetian (1185) catastico ("list of citizens possessing a taxable property")
    They were ethnic Albanians, specifically a branch of the Tuzi tribe. Given the geographic area where this cadastre was conducted, Bosnians in the modern understanding of the word are never attested.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

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