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Thread: A theory about the origin of E-V13

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    A theory about the origin of E-V13

    In https://www.quora.com/How-did-Haplog...ment/107903002, Ygor Coelho suggested to me that E-V13 arrived in Europe with Copper Age Anatolians, that, unlike the Neolithic ones, were already very mixed with Caucasians, Iranians and, to a lesser extent, Levantines. They got J2 from the Caucasians and Iranians and some E-M78 subclades from Levantines. Thus, they could have taken E-V13 to Europe. What do you think of this theory? I support it. Yes, I know that an E-V13 Neolithic skeleton was supposedly found in Catalonia in Spain but https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...ml#V13_origins mentions that it's not certain that it was E-V13, that it may have been another E-M78 subclade. So, do you have any thoughts on this theory?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo Canedo View Post
    In https://www.quora.com/How-did-Haplog...ment/107903002, Ygor Coelho suggested to me that E-V13 arrived in Europe with Copper Age Anatolians, that, unlike the Neolithic ones, were already very mixed with Caucasians, Iranians and, to a lesser extent, Levantines. They got J2 from the Caucasians and Iranians and some E-M78 subclades from Levantines. Thus, they could have taken E-V13 to Europe. What do you think of this theory? I support it. Yes, I know that an E-V13 Neolithic skeleton was supposedly found in Catalonia in Spain but https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...ml#V13_origins mentions that it's not certain that it was E-V13, that it may have been another E-M78 subclade. So, do you have any thoughts on this theory?
    I don't see much evidence which would support an origin from Copper Age Anatolia. Basal clades of E-V13 are all practically restricted to Europe, with the Balkans having the most. V13 is also most diverse in the Balkans. As for aDNA, The sample from Catalonia was V13+ by the looks of it https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...0889134632&z=8. Even if the sample is V13-, it was still L618+ which is just upstream of V13. L618 has also been found in Neolithic Croatia and Hungary.

    Based on the evidence we have, it's safe to assume that V13 probably originated in the Balkans sometime during the Neolithic. However, CTS1273 seems to have been picked up by Early Indo-European speakers during the Bronze Age somewhere around the Carpathians or western steppe and expanded with them across Europe.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

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    "What is surprising with E-V13 is that it is as common in R1a-dominant as in R1b-dominant countries." Is this actually true? How did this come about

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I don't see much evidence which would support an origin from Copper Age Anatolia. Basal clades of E-V13 are all practically restricted to Europe, with the Balkans having the most. V13 is also most diverse in the Balkans. As for aDNA, The sample from Catalonia was V13+ by the looks of it https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...0889134632&z=8. Even if the sample is V13-, it was still L618+ which is just upstream of V13. L618 has also been found in Neolithic Croatia and Hungary.

    Based on the evidence we have, it's safe to assume that V13 probably originated in the Balkans sometime during the Neolithic. However, CTS1273 seems to have been picked up by Early Indo-European speakers during the Bronze Age somewhere around the Carpathians or western steppe and expanded with them across Europe.
    Eupedia isn't 100% certain that the Catalonian sample was E-V13, it only mentions it as possible. As for the idea that E-V13 came to Europe with Copper Age, thing is, Neolithic Europeans had only very low frequencies of E-M78, literally only those 3 samples, that you mention, had it, out of more than 70 Neolithic European samples. It sounds somewhat unlikely that E-V13 would be most present in the Balkans that are right next to Anatolia, if it was a Neolithic European lineage. Neolithic Anatolians, that composed most of the Neolithic Europeans' DNA, were mostly G2a. E-M78 was far more associated with Levantines. Copper Age Anatolians were already mixed with Levantines and recent genetic studies suggest that they also migrated to Southeastern Europe. Thus, it sounds plausible for E-V13 to have come to Europe with them. An online map shows some E-V13 in Southern Anatolia, exactly where we would expect Levantine admixed Anatolians. What do you think, now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo Canedo View Post
    Eupedia isn't 100% certain that the Catalonian sample was E-V13, it only mentions it as possible. As for the idea that E-V13 came to Europe with Copper Age, thing is, Neolithic Europeans had only very low frequencies of E-M78, literally only those 3 samples, that you mention, had it, out of more than 70 Neolithic European samples. It sounds somewhat unlikely that E-V13 would be most present in the Balkans that are right next to Anatolia, if it was a Neolithic European lineage. Neolithic Anatolians, that composed most of the Neolithic Europeans' DNA, were mostly G2a. E-M78 was far more associated with Levantines. Copper Age Anatolians were already mixed with Levantines and recent genetic studies suggest that they also migrated to Southeastern Europe. Thus, it sounds plausible for E-V13 to have come to Europe with them. An online map shows some E-V13 in Southern Anatolia, exactly where we would expect Levantine admixed Anatolians. What do you think, now?
    It wouldn't matter all that much either way considering that it is still L618+. E has been found in 6 samples from Neolithic Europe so far:
    1) E-L618 from Zemunica cave, Dalmatia, Croatia 7,600-7,470ybp
    2) E-V13 (possibly L618*) from Avellaner cave, Catalonia, Spain ~7,000ybp
    3) E-M78 from Hungary 7,000-6,800ybp
    4) E-L618 from Hungary 6,780-6,700ybp
    5) E1b1b from Germany 6,250-5,650ybp
    6) E-M78 from Verteba cave, Ukraine 6,000-5,600ybp

    When it comes to Anatolia, there is only 1 ancient E sample and that sample dates back to the Neolithic (M35+ Barcin). Not even aDNA is in support of this theory based on the evidence we have. It is clear that E-V13 went through a boom during the Bronze Age (expansion of CTS1273) so the lower frequencies of E among Neolithic farmers is understandable. M78 itself is linked with North Africa (Iberomaurusians), not the Levant.

    Which online map shows V13 samples in Southern Anatolia? Connecting these V13 guys with the Copper Age inhabitants of the region isn't the best idea since V13 clades in West Asia today seem to fall under clades which have a clear European origin and are more recent arrivals in the area. They aren't natives.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 11-09-2019 at 01:35 AM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    It wouldn't matter all that much either way considering that it is still L618+. E has been found in 6 samples from Neolithic Europe so far:
    1) E-L618 from Zemunica cave, Dalmatia, Croatia 7,600-7,470ybp
    2) E-V13 (possibly L618*) from Avellaner cave, Catalonia, Spain ~7,000ybp
    3) E-M78 from Hungary 7,000-6,800ybp
    4) E-L618 from Hungary 6,780-6,700ybp
    5) E1b1b from Germany 6,250-5,650ybp
    6) E-M78 from Verteba cave, Ukraine 6,000-5,600ybp

    When it comes to Anatolia, there is only 1 ancient E sample and that sample dates back to the Neolithic (M35+ Barcin). Not even aDNA is in support of this theory based on the evidence we have. It is clear that E-V13 went through a boom during the Bronze Age (expansion of CTS1273) so the lower frequencies of E among Neolithic farmers is understandable. M78 itself is linked with North Africa (Iberomaurusians), not the Levant.

    Which online map shows V13 samples in Southern Anatolia? Connecting these V13 guys with the Copper Age inhabitants of the region isn't the best idea since V13 clades in West Asia today seem to fall under clades which have a clear European origin and are more recent arrivals in the area. They aren't natives.
    Eupedia only mentioned the Catalan, Croatian and one of the Hungarian samples. The fifth sample doesn't matter much for this, as E1b1b is much older than E-M78 and its subclades. But, regardless of the details, it's still the case that Neolithic Europeans had only very low frequencies of E-M78. Doesn't it sound like too much of a coincidence that E-V13 is most present in the Balkans, right next to Anatolia, especially considering that recent research indicates a new wave of migration fron Anatolia to the Balkans in the Copper Age, this time by a population with much more Caucasian, Iranian and, to a lesser extent, Levantine admixture? I'm tempted believe that it was the Copper Age Anatolians that brought E-V13 to Europe. Also, see the map in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...bclades_of_M78 that shows E-V13 in Southern Anatolia and even in the Levant. E-M78 wasn't associated only with Iberomaurasians, it was also associated with Levantines, who were closely related to them. Remember that the Natufians had some Iberomaurasian like North African DNA.
    Last edited by Ricardo Canedo; 11-09-2019 at 02:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo Canedo View Post
    Eupedia only mentioned the Catalan, Croatian and one of the Hungarian samples. The fifth sample doesn't matter much for this, as E1b1b is much older than E-M78 and its subclades. But, regardless of the details, it's still the case that Neolithic Europeans had only very low frequencies of E-M78. Doesn't it sound like too much of a coincidence that E-V13 is most present in the Balkans, right next to Anatolia, especially considering that recent research indicates a new wave of migration fron Anatolia to the Balkans in the Copper Age, this time by a population with much more Caucasian, Iranian and, to a lesser extent, Levantine admixture? I'm tempted believe that it was the Copper Age Anatolians that brought E-V13 to Europe. Also, see the map in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...bclades_of_M78 that shows E-V13 in Southern Anatolia and even in the Levant. E-M78 wasn't associated only with Iberomaurasians, it was also associated with Levantines, who were closely related to them. Remember that the Natufians had some Iberomaurasian like North African DNA.
    You shouldn't rely too much on Eupedia. Fact is that M78 has also been found in Ukraine (Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture) and Hungary (Sopot Culture). It is also a fact that E has been found in more aDNA samples from Europe than Anatolia, so Anatolia had an even lower frequency by the looks of it. Frequency doesn't really matter all that much when it comes to modern day populations since frequencies have fluctuated throughout history.

    I already explained why you shouldn't use the V13+ in present day Anatolia as evidence of an Anatolian origin of V13. They are modern day samples and all fall under clusters which have European origin, they aren't representative of the Copper Age populations of the region. The origin of M78 is linked with Iberomaurasians, that was my point. The Natufians clearly got their M78 from a North African source.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 11-09-2019 at 08:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    You shouldn't rely too much on Eupedia. Fact is that M78 has also been found in Ukraine (Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture) and Hungary (Sopot Culture). It is also a fact that E has been found in more aDNA samples from Europe than Anatolia, so Anatolia had an even lower frequency by the looks of it. Frequency doesn't really matter all that much when it comes to modern day populations since frequencies have fluctuated throughout history.

    I already explained why you shouldn't use the V13+ in present day Anatolia as evidence of an Anatolian origin of V13. They are modern day samples and all fall under clusters which have European origin, they aren't representative of the Copper Age populations of the region. The origin of M78 is linked with Iberomaurasians, that was my point. The Natufians clearly got their M78 from a North African source.
    Thing is, it sounds odd that out of all regions of Europe, E-M78 frequencies increased, specifically, in the Balkans, that are known to have received a new Anatolian migration wave in the Copper Age, this time, by a population much more mixed with Caucasians, Iranians and, to a lesser extent, Levantines. I know that Neolithic Levantines got E-M78 from North African ancestors, I was just saying that it was far more associated with them than with Neolithic Anatolians and Europeans. Regardless, the map also shows E-V13 in the Levant, look at the far bottom. That supports the idea that E-V13 originated in the Middle East, given the lack of European migrations to the Levant, at least in a big scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo Canedo View Post
    Thing is, it sounds odd that out of all regions of Europe, E-M78 frequencies increased, specifically, in the Balkans, that are known to have received a new Anatolian migration wave in the Copper Age, this time, by a population much more mixed with Caucasians, Iranians and, to a lesser extent, Levantines. I know that Neolithic Levantines got E-M78 from North African ancestors, I was just saying that it was far more associated with them than with Neolithic Anatolians and Europeans. Regardless, the map also shows E-V13 in the Levant, look at the far bottom. That supports the idea that E-V13 originated in the Middle East, given the lack of European migrations to the Levant, at least in a big scale.
    Maps of Y-DNA frequencies aren't all ways accurate, especially maps which are based on old data. Also, V13 went through a boom in frequency during the Bronze Age and not Copper Age so the Copper Age theory still seems inaccurate. Anyways, for this theory to work you would have to prove that V13 has had a presence in Anatolia since the Copper Age, you haven't done that, you're only making assumptions based on speculation.

    Again, saying that the presence of V13 in the Levant and Anatolia today is evidence of an origin in the Middle East is very wrong. It is a fact that these V13 samples all fall under clades which have an origin in Europe (S7461, Z5018 etc), and so they are obviously not evidence of V13 being native to the region. If V13 was native then we would see high diversity and a presence of basal clades. But we don't.

    Please provide evidence which would back your claims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Again, saying that the presence of V13 in the Levant and Anatolia today is evidence of an origin in the Middle East is very wrong. It is a fact that these V13 samples all fall under clades which have an origin in Europe (S7461, Z5018 etc), and so they are obviously not evidence of V13 being native to the region. If V13 was native then we would see high diversity and a presence of basal clades. But we don't.
    How about E-V13 Y-chromosomes among Iranians, Tajiks, and Turkmens? Is it already clear that they are descended from European forefathers?

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