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Thread: A theory about the origin of E-V13

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    Out of curiosity, why are there so many "fringe" opinions on E-V13's origins? Obviously until we get ancient samples, its all speculation at this point but does anyone ever consider a not very exciting origin? Like, E-M35 forming roughly in Red Sea area, then E-L618 in the Levant and then E-V13 in Northern Greece or Thrace area? Geographically, I doubt it would go from the Levant (E-L618) all the way to Gibraltar. That just seems a bit far fetched to me.
    Well, every opinion on E-V13 origin, including the "not very exciting one" you mentioned above, can be considered fringe, since there's not one ancient V13 or L618 sample outside of Europe yet. And it isn't even about V13 having exciting origin, at least in my case, it's about going along with currently available facts. And the facts are Taforalt M78 individuals are by far the closest lineage to the actual ancestor of Z1919 and L618 we have so far. But it seems some people are still in the 2000s, when we didn't have aDNA, and all we could do is guessing based on zero facts.

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  3. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    Geographically, I doubt it would go from the Levant (E-L618) all the way to Gibraltar. That just seems a bit far fetched to me.
    There is nothing to be doubted about multiple tested 15000 years old E-M78 results from present-day Morocco.
    They are not E-L618, but I don't see ancient E-L618 in Levant also.
    Besides that, there are significantly more ancient E-M78 in the Western Mediterranean compared to a single E-M78 from Levant which is btw negative for Z1919.

    So, far fetched or not E-M78 was very close to Gibraltar 15000 years ago.
    And I don't see a problem with Mesolithic scenario where a E-M78+Z1919+ crosses the narrow strait and enters Iberian peninsula.

  4. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    There is nothing to be doubted about multiple tested 15000 years old E-M78 results from present-day Morocco.
    They are not E-L618, but I don't see ancient E-L618 in Levant also.
    Besides that, there are significantly more ancient E-M78 in the Western Mediterranean compared to a single E-M78 from Levant which is btw negative for Z1919.

    So, far fetched or not E-M78 was very close to Gibraltar 15000 years ago.
    And I don't see a problem with Mesolithic scenario where a E-M78+Z1919+ crosses the narrow strait and enters Iberian peninsula.

    Actually at Tarforalt site one E-618 was found. This is literally nothing to be debated if no samples of it show up in Levant. “the Iberomaurusian fossils excavated at the Taforalt site were found to carry the Y-DNA haplogroups E-M78*(4/6; 66%), E-L618*(1/6; 16%), and E-M215*(1/6; 16%).

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  6. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scythoslav View Post
    Actually at Tarforalt site one E-618 was found. This is literally nothing to be debated if no samples of it show up in Levant. “the Iberomaurusian fossils excavated at the Taforalt site were found to carry the Y-DNA haplogroups E-M78*(4/6; 66%), E-L618*(1/6; 16%), and E-M215*(1/6; 16%).
    the L618-level SNPs CTS1975 and CTS7273 are both transition SNPs, and their positive calls for TAF009 are both based on single reads, with both of the SNPs at the very end of their reads. So those positives are very likely to be false positives resulting from DNA damage.
    source: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...usian-culture/

    Also according to YFull L618 should be younger than the Taforalt samples.

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  8. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    Well, every opinion on E-V13 origin, including the "not very exciting one" you mentioned above, can be considered fringe, since there's not one ancient V13 or L618 sample outside of Europe yet. And it isn't even about V13 having exciting origin, at least in my case, it's about going along with currently available facts. And the facts are Taforalt M78 individuals are by far the closest lineage to the actual ancestor of Z1919 and L618 we have so far. But it seems some people are still in the 2000s, when we didn't have aDNA, and all we could do is guessing based on zero facts.
    Im quoting a response you made in another thread so please forgive any confusion. From this thread
    Most important question regarding V13 is when and from where its parent clade L618 came to Europe? Given the absence of E-M78-Z1919-L618 clades in Anatolian Neolithic (0/23), I think it's highly unlikely it came via Anatolia with early farmers. We do have one neolithic M35 sample from Barcin, but with no downstream clades tested, so we can't make any assumtions based on it. IMO L618 came to Europe directly from North Africa, more precisely from modern-day Tunisia (Algeria, Lybia) to Sicily, and from there to South Italy and Balkans. Similarities between North African Mesolithic Capsian culture and culture of Mesolithic population of Western Balkans (east Adriatic coast) have been observed by Yugoslavian archaeologist Borivoj Čović more than 40 years ago:


    Its certainly an interesting theory, and what I mentioned earlier is purely based on geographics alone, nothing more. That said, there is a lot of talk about Greeks bringing E-V13 to Sicily and Southern Italy. Are you believing E-V13 was already there before the Greeks set out and established Magna Graecia?
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminŕ (RC) Italy

  9. #256
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    Natufian component either originated in Arabia or the Levant

    If the Natufian component has originated in the Maghreb it shouldn't have been mixed with african ancestry since this admixture doesn't exist in the Natufains from the levant
    and in Egypt the only population we know in the Mesolithic are nubian fishermen they were not even in egypt proper they were also Physically impossible to be of any ancestral relation to Natufians or Iberomaurosians..
    also they were thought to carry predominant Haplogroup A as Kadruka samples from Nubia shows (Kadruka were even thought to have had infelunce from the North african pastoralists).

    In horn africa its the even clearer before the Pastoralists migration from north africa the people there carried Mota ancestry with no Natufian component.
    Idk who would still believe in horn african origin unless he is completely brain-less.

    Last but not least , the Basal Eurasian is officially thought to have been in Arabia since and it had a very old presence in the Caucasus according to the Dzudzuana samples

    Since Natufian component carry high Basal eurasian ancestry and Unknown Western HG ancestry the Natufian component then might have been formed in Arabia or in the Levant.

    So Yes E1b1b back migrated with U6 from the Levant into north africa at two phases Paleolithic then settling the Maghreb and at the neolithic the Pastoralists who brought the afro-asiatic language.

    The population who had the Natufian component were not the Natufain themselves but an ancestral population in the Levant.

    I believe the aDNA has turned the table and the old theories of African origin of Afro-asiatic speakers is now Impossible to believe.
    it's becoming clear that the Afro-asiatic speakers came from a back-to africa migrations from the near east and that there original component formed outside of africa.

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  11. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scythoslav View Post
    Do you not believe that E split from D in West Asia then back migrated to Africa? Iberomaurusians had u6 mtDNA that they could have picked up only in Eurasia. Haplo E spread throughout Africa conquering and assimilating native SSA. It’s not a native African haplo like A and B
    DE* originated in Africa and the most recent study found haplogroup D0 in three Nigerians.

    I believe African E-M35 males mated with Eurasian females all over North Africa (NW and NE).Maternal haplogroups like M1,N1 and U6 were probably responsible for the initial West Eurasian admixture in Africa

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  13. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    DE* originated in Africa and the most recent study found haplogroup D0 in three Nigerians.

    I believe African E-M35 males mated with Eurasian females all over North Africa (NW and NE).Maternal haplogroups like M1,N1 and U6 were probably responsible for the initial West Eurasian admixture in Africa
    It's more complex than that as well. Don't forget the other-way around admixture. the E males mixing with Nilotic/Pygmy females in Sub-Sahara.

  14. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    DE* originated in Africa and the most recent study found haplogroup D0 in three Nigerians.

    I believe African E-M35 males mated with Eurasian females all over North Africa (NW and NE).Maternal haplogroups like M1,N1 and U6 were probably responsible for the initial West Eurasian admixture in Africa
    D0 from the Middle East (Syria and Saudi Arabia) is older and more basal than D0 found in Africa. The most basal and older forms of E* have been likewise found in the Middle East (Asia), and the second oldest in Northeast Africa. Most likely that Nigerian DO came from Middle East.

    But enough about this irrelevant issue. This thread is about how E-V13 came into europe, not about DE, which for now is most probably from back migration into Africa.

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  16. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    D0 from the Middle East (Syria and Saudi Arabia) is older and more basal than D0 found in Africa. The most basal and older forms of E* have been likewise found in the Middle East (Asia), and the second oldest in Northeast Africa. Most likely that Nigerian DO came from Middle East.
    Not according to a recent study if anything considering the history of Saudi Arabia and the Middle East.Those men (still unverified if their D0 is more basal) were probably of recent African origin.

    In conclusion, sequencing of the D0 Y chromosomes and placement of them on a calibrated Y-chromosomal phylogeny identify the most likely model of Y-chromosomal exit from Africa: an origin of the DE lineage inside Africa and expansion out of the C, D, and FT lineages. It suggests an exit time interval that overlaps with the time of Neanderthal admixture estimated from autosomal analyses, and slightly refines it. These findings are consistent with a shared history of Y chromosomes and autosomes, and illustrate how study of Y lineages may lead to general new insights.


    But enough about this irrelevant issue. This thread is about how E-V13 came into europe, not about DE, which for now is most probably from back migration into Africa.
    Just came in to correct some of the E-V13 posters who want to present incorrect information on the origins E,E-M215 and E-M35.Anyways, I'll step out the thread and let my E-M78 distant cousins discuss in peace
    Last edited by drobbah; 05-30-2020 at 09:13 PM.

    Target: Mother_scaled
    Distance: 5.4903% / 0.05490334
    50.8 Dinka
    35.8 Levant_Natufian
    9.0 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    4.0 ETH_4500BP
    0.4 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: Drobbah_scaled
    Distance: 5.1638% / 0.05163817
    44.8 Dinka
    36.0 Levant_Natufian
    11.6 ETH_4500BP
    6.2 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    1.4 MAR_EN

    Target: Father_scaled
    Distance: 5.5604% / 0.05560439
    48.0 Dinka
    42.0 Levant_Natufian
    8.6 ETH_4500BP
    1.0 MAR_EN
    0.4 Yemenite_Al_Jawf


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