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Thread: A theory about the origin of E-V13

  1. #3001
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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardus View Post
    Because yhe 'bulgarian' thracians were more steppe yamnaya culturally influenced than the northern dacian thracians. Just in line with the north Danube living of the so called dacians 'getae' with the (almost)same culture. I don't know why peoples simply don't see the elephant in the kitchen.
    The Yamnaya were long gone by that time though and the main influences which spread inhumation were coming from Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni, Cimmerians (Thraco-Cimmerian) and Scythians. Like you said for the Getae and like it was true for some Thraco-Cimmerians.

    Unfortunately we got only local females from Mezocsat Thraco-Cimmerians and one actual Cimmerian/steppe newcomer which was haplogroup N and Caucasian-East Asian shifted unlike the local females.

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     Alain (08-05-2022)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Yamnaya were long gone by that time though and the main influences which spread inhumation were coming from Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni, Cimmerians (Thraco-Cimmerian) and Scythians. Like you said for the Getae and like it was true for some Thraco-Cimmerians.

    Unfortunately we got only local females from Mezocsat Thraco-Cimmerians and one actual Cimmerian/steppe newcomer which was haplogroup N and Caucasian-East Asian shifted unlike the local females.
    Off course, but theirs culture survived in a large proportion in the Scythians culture, like you said.
    http://history.org.ua/LiberUA/978-966-413-261-6/25.pdf practically the author support every aspect you mentioned about.

    '' a fost identificat un nou complex cultural Noua

    Sabatinovka

    Coslogeni, care,
    va juca un rol important la formarea aspectelor culturale din hallstattul timpuriu şi
    nemijlocit la etnogeneza tracilor timpurii.''

    Pay attention on 'etnogeneza tracilor timpurii' meaning ethnogenesis of early thracians. Hallstatul timpuriu means early Halstatt or EIA like you said. There is no way for thracians prior of LBA/IAE.
    Last edited by leonardus; 08-05-2022 at 11:35 AM.

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     Riverman (08-05-2022)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    No, I didn't say such a thing and for Thrace at least I don't think that it is correct to say that no E-V13 should be found there. For Dacians, I'm getting more and more convinced that we're mostly dealing with a theoretical construct.

    In my opinion, after several studies we'll see that continuous movements from the central Balkans increased E-V13 in Thrace gradually to a substantial %. It's a very anti-climactic narrative, but it is what it is.

    In my opinion, it's better to discuss a paper when we have the actual paper with all of its samples, theoretical context and raw data. When we discuss partial data which rely on partial knowledge of samples it may create a false impression, which doesn't help the discussion.
    Central Balkans is actually something I could see being the source of V13, even if it raises some questions (but so does every proposal). At this point the different proposals are much closer than say the discussion on IE being from pontic Steppe or the fertile crescent.
    So disappointing that the paper keeps getting pushed back. At least I'll be in Leiden in a month, so if the paper is not out by then, I will hear it from the source.

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     Riverman (08-05-2022)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Central Balkans is actually something I could see being the source of V13, even if it raises some questions (but so does every proposal). At this point the different proposals are much closer than say the discussion on IE being from pontic Steppe or the fertile crescent.
    So disappointing that the paper keeps getting pushed back. At least I'll be in Leiden in a month, so if the paper is not out by then, I will hear it from the source.
    The Central Balkans became the primary source for many lineages, possibly, at a later stage rather with Belegis II-Gáva and Bosut-Basarabi.
    The real question is where it was before, in the EBA to LBA. And simce both Belegis II-Gáva and Psenichevo-Babadag being clearly the descendants from Gáva, we get there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Central Balkans became the primary source for many lineages, possibly, at a later stage rather with Belegis II-Gáva and Bosut-Basarabi.
    The real question is where it was before, in the EBA to LBA. And simce both Belegis II-Gáva and Psenichevo-Babadag being clearly the descendants from Gáva, we get there.
    Well, E-V13 won't be found in the Gava core region in Hungary, so we can exclude any such movement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Well, E-V13 won't be found in the Gava core region in Hungary, so we can exclude any such movement.
    Only the very tip of North Eastern Hungary being a Gáva core region and they regularly cremated.
    The territory of Eastern Slovakia is as important and South West Ukraine and North Western Romania is even much larger for both the real predecessors (Suciu de Sus-Lapus and Berkesz-Demecser).
    Much of Hungary has nothing to do with Gáva.

    If there are a lot of Romanian samples, that's even more interesting, but those need to be from the right cultures and areas.

    It's not about countries, but exact cultures, peoples and regions.
    Because in countries like Hungary, Slovakia, Ukraine and Romania lived very different people in the same and at different times.

  10. #3007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Only the very tip of North Eastern Hungary being a Gáva core region and they regularly cremated.
    The territory of Eastern Slovakia is as important and South West Ukraine and North Western Romania is even much larger for both the real predecessors (Suciu de Sus-Lapus and Berkesz-Demecser).
    Much of Hungary has nothing to do with Gáva.

    If there are a lot of Romanian samples, that's even more interesting, but those need to be from the right cultures and areas.

    It's not about countries, but exact cultures, peoples and regions.
    Because in countries like Hungary, Slovakia, Ukraine and Romania lived very different people in the same and at different times.
    Absolutely correct.

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