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Thread: A theory about the origin of E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    helios is a full fledged native greek term. Obviously of full fledged IE origin

    sāwel-, Proto-Indo-European root meaning "the sun." According to Watkins, the *-el- in it originally was a suffix, and there was an alternative form *s(u)wen-, with suffix *-en-, hence the two forms represented by Latin sol, English sun.

    It forms all or part of: anthelion; aphelion; girasole; heliacal; helio-; heliotrope; helium; insolate; insolation; parasol; parhelion; perihelion; Sol; solar; solarium; solstice; south; southern; sun; Sunday.

    It is the hypothetical source of/evidence for its existence is provided by: Sanskrit suryah, Avestan hvar "sun, light, heavens;" Greek hēlios; Latin sol "the sun, sunlight;" Lithuanian saulė, Old Church Slavonic slunice; Gothic sauil, Old English sol "sun;" Old English swegl "sky, heavens, the sun;" Welsh haul, Old Cornish heuul, Breton heol "sun;" Old Irish suil "eye;" Avestan xueng "sun;" Old Irish fur-sunnud "lighting up;" Old English sunne German Sonne, Gothic sunno "the sun."
    Ἕλλην

    Ancient Greek

    Etymology

    Μost probably a derivation of Ἑλλοί (Helloí) or Σελλοί (Selloí), the Greek inhabitants of the area around the sanctuary of Dodona (Δωδώνη (Dōdṓnē)), itself of Pre-Greek Pre-Indo-European origin according to Beekes.[1]

    ^ Beekes, Robert S. P. (2010) Etymological Dictionary of Greek (Leiden Indo-European Etymological Dictionary Series; 10), with the assistance of Lucien van Beek, Leiden, Boston: Brill, →ISBN
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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    Also:

    Ὕλλος

    Ancient Greek

    Etymology

    Imported from Pre-Greek. Orel considers it to be from Proto-Albanian *h₁us-los meaning diety, or star, relating it to Albanian Bardhyll, which translates into "white star", encompassing the godlike role the stars held as viewed by early Albanians.[1]


    References
    1.^ Orel, Vladimir (1998) , “Bardhyll”, in Albanian Etymological Dictionary, Leiden, Boston, Cologne: Brill, →ISBN
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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    Copy of my comment from elsewhere. This is especially @Johane Derite. It fits into what you have been saying.

    But cremation at Glasinac was introduced by the Urnielders. Based on what we know now, it is not likely V13 were among them. Most likely R-L51 and we do have some strong diversity of R-L51 in Bosnia/Serbia. It is more likely there were some local pre-Urnfield V13 among Glasinac people (such as the E-Y37092 clades, among them only BY14150 seems Thracian related).

    Urnfielders used cremation but so did the Vatina, Garla-mare and related cultures. Enchelei are very interesting and quite possibly E-v13 related but their cremation traditions were probably of different origin to those at Glasinac. Also Glasinac people generally resisted the Urnfield wave.

    Liburnian cremation again was of Western Urnfield origin. R1b likely Venetic speakers.

    What you should rather focus is this


    Look at this map. Illyrians were divided in two groups archeologically. The Norhtern one (brown) was generally Glasinac related. Most likely dominately J-L283. And that is suggested by aDNA, Dalmatian J-L283 find (pre proto-Glasinac), rumored N.Albanian MBA/LBA J-L283 find.

    Southern Albanian areas were dominated by the Matt-Painted pottery (yellow). This is where there is some very strong E-V13 diversity of clades having LBA relatives to the North, this is where there were migrations of Brnjica and Mediana types.

    And you see this pottery dominates Messapian areas. Per Ratzinger Messapians and Glasinac Illyrians were not same. And Albanian language leans far more towards Messapian direction.

    Possibly Southern Albania was populated prior to LBA by the Phrygians (likely R-Z2103, Armenian clades).

    My proposal is
    yellow - significant E-V13 % (Kuc i Zi etc., plenty of LBA/EIA migrants from the North)
    brown - dominance of J-L283 (Glasinac-Mati)

    Ofc some presence of the other hg in other areas.. Enchelei that you mention, and I agree with you there, fit ofc in yellow zone.

    So actually J-L283 looks more Glasinac, but the Albanian language is more Messapian related and per this it shows more of E-V13 (and ofc likely R-Z2705) connection.
    In this scheme E-V13 clades joined possibly the R-Z2705 carriers in Mediana III phase where Pshenichevo element dominated. We already know what hg Pshenichevo people belonged to mostly.

    In this scheme J-L283 is Glasinac-Mati related (which it is surely), while E-V13 is Kuc i Zi and Messapian related. And therefore E-V13 is more Albanian than J-L283..

    Btw these migrations to Southern Albania are just about the only way to explain the coming of E-V13 from an archeological POV. Anything else is
    2) saying V13 was forever in Albania since the Neolithic and it spreads from there in BA, IA
    3) V13 arrived to Albania in Late Antiquity/Early Medieval times.

    So anybody can choose his favorite option. I'd choose no 1. for the majority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Lol, why is that, because of our earlier discussion where I didn't agree with your ideas that E-V13 was the main marker of the Dorians?
    Well I still hold my ground and believe that E-V13 wasn't that important among the Doric Greeks.
    You should also remember that we are are only speculating at this moment because we don't have any aDNA from Girla-Mare neither from Transdanubian Encrusted Pottery Culture so we don't know how strong was E-V13 among their bearers.
    Nevertheless, you can't simply identify the proto-Dorians with Girla-Mare because there is a chronological and geographical gap with the Mycenaean Greeks and because of the fundamental difference in culture, funeral rites and so on.
    Agreed.

    But on the bolded.

    Draga Garašanin

    Even though between the end of Vučedol and the beginning of the Transdanubian group there is a certain hiatus, all of these elements point towards its autochthonous ancestry from the Eneolithic groups of Pannonia. From this group, by spreading eastwards along the Danube, somewhat later developed the subsequent Dubovac-Žuto Brdo group. With its occurrence begins the long evolution which, combined with the further eastwards movement, goes through the Insula Banului group to the groups of Babadag and Pšeničevo.
    Most simply consider the Pšeničevo and its related cultures as offshoots of Dubovac/Girla-Mare group. Such were the parallels.

    I'm afraid the door has almost closed for E-V13. R-Z93 MBA from Bulgaria belongs to early Razkopanitsa VIII group, a very strong MBA group with strong links to the LBA Zimnicea-Plovdiv complex which dominated the pre Bronze Age collapse LBA Bulgaria.

    Vatina per most views is more Maros related in its origins (no E-V13).

    In EBA Bulgaria, all phases there are many finds, and no E-V13. So even though TMRCA would suggest EBA presence in Bulgaria that looks very unlikely. Basically there are Y-DNA finds of cultures I thought EBA Eastern V13 might be related to and they are not V13.

    The only other theoretical option is Cetina->Bubanj Hum III, if Bubanj Hum III played more part in Vatina ethnogenesis, and not Maros, which is problematic. Based on current aDNA evidence one must assume Vatin culture was also more R-Z2103.

    Besides when one combines Maros with Razkopanitsa-Asenovets R-Z93 find which is also likely Tei IV related they together make it all more unlikely for the V13.

    It's me running around these finds and finding their exact archeological context (not an easy thing to do or find often) which is the first thing one should do. I did it for that J-L283 find and immediately everything was fitting in nicely.

    Prior to few days ago I thought that R-Z93 find was some stray Iranian, but no, he is mainstream MBA (and likely LBA) Bulgarian. Even though it's bit of a surprise, such finds in Noua-Coslogeni group wouldn't be a surprise at all. That find was 100 % IE in auDNA.

    What we see in Bulgaria is a wave of population replacements from the EBA to EIA.. Ofc same goes for the earlier time..

    Those Bulgarian aDNA finds from Mathieson et al and the upcoming study were actually quite representative, well chosen. Just the MBA/LBA period has just one find, but it should be notied as authors ofthe upcoming study have, that there was a bit of hiatus in Bulgaria between the EBA and LBA. Indeed Bulgarian LBA/MBA cultural diversity was low.

    In the middle and most of Bulgaria the Zimnicea-Plovdiv - Razkopanitsa VII dominated. In NE there was Noua-Coslogeni (again strongly suspected R-Z93). And in the NW a Girla-Mare variant on the territory of modern Bulgaria. That's it.

    Some discrepancy in TMRCA of E-V13 might be sought in the fact that these "close-knit circle" cultures formed many isolated lineages prior to their massive expansion.
    Last edited by Huban; 06-09-2021 at 11:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post


    Btw these migrations to Southern Albania are just about the only way to explain the coming of E-V13 from an archeological POV. Anything else is
    2) saying V13 was forever in Albania since the Neolithic and it spreads from there in BA, IA
    3) V13 arrived to Albania in Late Antiquity/Early Medieval times.

    So anybody can choose his favorite option. I'd choose no 1. for the majority.
    CTS9320 does seem to have had a LBA-IA expansion. But Z5018 does not, its distribution in Albania suggests an expansion Middle Bronze Age, ~1600 BC, to me, that then underwent loss of diversity later on, but still has enough branches spread out to suggest such an expansion dating to that time.

    Successive conquests one after the other after this expansion resulted in loss of diversity, either by being killed off, or being broken away from Albanian community via assimilation.

    A proto-Albanian 1500 years ago that became a Vlach or Romanian for example, loaning into their language a few proto-Alb words, but taking with him a particular branch and thus reducing Alb Y-diversity.

    In such political situations like this that create pressure to assimilate, those that do not assimilate are more likely to be killed off or economically and politically marginalized to the point of your line being extinct within a couple of generations anyway.

    Thus you can be left with a situation where non-Albanians may have branches that were also speaking proto-Albanian, while Albanians may not, because that region where that branch survived may have only survived by assimilation into the hegemonic non-Albanian culture, and so cannot have made it into the proto-Albanian group that survived into Albanian.



    Last edited by Johane Derite; 06-09-2021 at 11:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    CTS9320 does seem to have had a LBA-IA expansion. But Z5018 does not, its distribution in Albania suggests an expansion Middle Bronze Age, ~1600 BC, to me, that then underwent loss of diversity later on, but still has enough branches spread out to suggest such an expansion dating to that time.

    Successive conquests one after the other after this expansion resulted in loss of diversity, either by being killed off, or being broken away from Albanian community via assimilation.

    A proto-Albanian 1500 years ago that became a Vlach or Romanian for example, loaning into their language a few proto-Alb words, but taking with him a particular branch and thus reducing Alb Y-diversity.

    In such political situations like this that create pressure to assimilate, those that do not assimilate are more likely to be killed off or economically and politically marginalized to the point of your line being extinct within a couple of generations anyway.

    Thus you can be left with a situation where non-Albanians may have branches that were also speaking proto-Albanian, while Albanians may not, because that region where that branch survived may have only survived by assimilation into the hegemonic non-Albanian culture, and so cannot have made it into the proto-Albanian group that survived into Albanian.
    Albanians have great diversity of Z5018 and their TMRCA is in MBA, however most of those subclades of Z5018 themselves have LBA/EIA TMRCA and Albanians in those clades have no relatives closer than LBA/EIA. Invoking supposed loss of diversity due to invasion events cannot be used as a valid argument as same invasions left alot more imprint to the North and so would have caused even more of depletion among Z5018 lineages there.

    There are some widespread Albanian clusters that have 1000-1500 ybp relatives in Romanians for ex. and those are examples of what you are invoking. But one cannot use the same argument for Bulgarian, Romanian, Greek etc relatives whose TMRCA with Albanians is EIA/LBA range. Such chaotic makeup in other haplogroups suggests (often hasty and chaotic) migration events.

    Despite great Albanian diversity, Bulgarians on a smaller sample have more Z5018 diversity than Albanians, which combined with aDNA finds speaks totally against what you are proposing. Using you analogy btw one could easily postulate I-Y3120 is of Balkan origin and not Slavic.

    There is no archeological support for some E-V13 MBA migration event into Albania. In fact there exists evidence to point that this yellow area in Southern Albania was populated by the Phrygians before LBA. You already touched this topic when you invoked Bryges and some toponyms, and you tried to connect E-V13 with them. That doesn't seem possible and they should have been mostly R-Z2103. Northern part of Albania was dominated by the cultures which descend from the Dalmatian culture where J-L283 was found. Hence this new rumored MBA/LBA J-L283 find in N.Albania. So there is no reasonable path towards some strong MBA E-V13 presence in Albania judging by the current modern and aDNA evidence.

    Why don't you talk to mr. Riverman and explain to him how his ancestors ended up in Germans from proto-Albanians 1000-1500 years ago.. As he is too Z5018+..
    Last edited by Huban; 06-10-2021 at 10:07 PM. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Albanians have great diversity of Z5018 and their TMRCA is in MBA, however most of those subclades of Z5018 themselves have LBA/EIA TMRCA and Albanians in those clades have no relatives closer than LBA/EIA. Invoking supposed loss of diversity due to invasion events cannot be used as a valid argument as same invasions left alot more imprint to the North and so would have caused even more of depletion among Z5018 lineages there.

    There are some widespread Albanian clusters that have 1000-1500 ybp relatives in Romanians for ex. and those are examples of what you are invoking. But one cannot use the same argument for Bulgarian, Romanian, Greek etc relatives whose TMRCA with Albanians is EIA/LBA range. Such chaotic makeup in other haplogroups suggests (often hasty and chaotic) migration events.

    Despite great Albanian diversity, Bulgarians on a smaller sample have more Z5018 diversity than Albanians, which combined with aDNA finds speaks totally against what you are proposing. Using you analogy btw one could easily postulate I-Y3120 is of Balkan origin and not Slavic.

    There is no archeological support for some E-V13 MBA migration event into Albania. In fact there exists evidence to point that this yellow area in Southern Albania was populated by the Phrygians before LBA. You already touched this topic when you invoked Bryges and some toponyms, and you tried to connect E-V13 with them. That doesn't seem possible and they should have been mostly R-Z2103. Northern part of Albania was dominated by the cultures which descend from the Dalmatian culture where J-L283 was found. Hence this new rumored MBA/LBA J-L283 find in N.Albania. So there is no reasonable path towards some strong MBA E-V13 presence in Albania judging by the current modern and aDNA evidence.

    Why don't you talk to mr. Riverman and explain to him how his ancestors ended up in Germans from proto-Albanians 1000-1500 years ago.. As he is too Z5018+..
    Individuals can always have different ancestral pathways, including myself, so who knows. But whole populations don't and Albanians look like a complex, diverse, but fairly late subset from the E-V13 trunk. Its almost like if they had a gathering and decided every tenth man from the E-V13 populatoin had to go, to Albanians, the same for other regions. What this suggests to me is that it was a subset of a greater E-V13 population which diverged late. Similar diversity can be shown up to Western Europe, so the same thing, a selection of males from diverse clan groups, patrilineages, happened not just once or twice, but more often than that. An EIA distribution, splits and branching events, look therefore the most likely, but even then its strange why they didn't split along the main clades, but down to the very subclade. So either they had no clan based structure, there where no patrilinear based tribes, or it was one, unified and fairly small group which demographically exploded in a rapid expansion event. Again, the only plausible scenario for such an event is the Iron Age transition, better tools, better weapons, valuable knowledge and goods. If this scenario is right, we might have still one unified, fairly homogeneous, rather small population in the LBA primarily in one, clearly defined, geographical area. This has, for the current density of ancient DNA sampling, something of looking for a needle in a haystick. Even worse, people cremated, which makes a lot of samples undetectable.
    But right now I still think this is the best explanation, a very, very late (for the older theories) rapid demographic and geogrpaphic expansion from a fairly small, geographically comfined population which profited from the Bronze to Iron Age transition big time. And this again leads to Teleac & Co and at least a subset of Gava or Gava-Belegis.
    The E-V13 ethnicity, whatever it was, most likely closest related to Proto-Thracian, needed some sort of leverage, a big advantage. Like R1a/R1b with the steppe and EBA package. Such an event and outcome is not self-explanatory, by just pointing to some potential ancestors. We need to find the mechanism which allowed this rapid expansion and spread and I would bet on the Iron technology, most definitely. E-V13 were probably the first big time iron workers and users in European prehistory, but for sure they were among the first, or just used it the most efficiently. This also means they had to spread, not by replacement, but on a high level, within Hallstatt, especially Eastern Hallstatt.
    We'll see, because that should be testable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
    Rrenjet/Gjergj can correct me if I'm wrong. However, if memory serves, from a prior post about subject; the supposed upcoming finds for Albania which have MBA J2b-L283 and R1b(can't recall the clade) have E-V13 only appearing either in the LBA Albania and or Iron Age period.
    That's actually significant, for what I said above: Did they come directly with the introduction of iron working? I would guess so.

    You have to read up on how iron weapons smashed Bronze ones. Its interesting to imagine. Two sword fighters, one with an iron sword, the other with a bronze one. Good luck for the bronze sword guy...

    But this advantage had expiration date. People could only surf on that wave until the technology spread, including by their own people which sold their knowledge and products on the market. Like even in times of war between Europeans and natives, there were always people selling guns for those paying the right price.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-11-2021 at 08:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Why don't you talk to mr. Riverman and explain to him how his ancestors ended up in Germans from proto-Albanians 1000-1500 years ago.. As he is too Z5018+..

    I never claimed this, so I don't understand why you have to bring other users in, is the purpose to instigate fights or what? Very low level of conduct as usual.

    My belief is that E-V13 is connected to the Albanoid linguistic group, of which proto-Albanian is one descendant of (the only surviving one). In the middle bronze age, Albanoid would have had far more descendants that died off generation after generation.

    My comment specifically stated that a middle bronze age expansion seemed to be suggested, not 1000-1500 years ago. That range was mentioned to try give one example about a period in which loss of diversity would have occurred. There were many other periods since the middle bronze age, not just 1500 years ago.

    One period could have also been the instability of the late-bronze age, in which CTS9320 expanded. Likewise instability in the Iron Age would also have lost some diversity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Despite great Albanian diversity, Bulgarians on a smaller sample have more Z5018 diversity than Albanians, which combined with aDNA finds speaks totally against what you are proposing.
    So? That is irrelevant since we know that there is no positive correlation with the slavic linguistic branch, and that Bulgarian E-V13 for the major part must have been speaking a non-Bulgarian language. The language which this E-V13 in Bulgarians must have been speaking is Albanoid considering Bulgarian and Macedonian have Albanoid grammatical features not shared by other Slavic languages to the same extent.

    The MBA expansion of Z5018 was not only to Albania. I believe it was far more reaching, and will build my case on this in later posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Using you analogy btw one could easily postulate I-Y3120 is of Balkan origin and not Slavic.
    It would be a false equivalence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_...oldformat=true

    Albanian ethnicity and language did not spread in the same way as Slavic ones. You cannot apply an explanatory model that works for Slavic to it. It works for I-Y3120 since that is the way it spread, and it positively correlates to Slavic language presence.

    Albanian ethnicity/language can be compared to the Jewish religion/ethnicity in that for the most part we did not "proselytize" or try to "convert" people to our ethnicity or language, in the same way that Jewish religion for the most part does not proselytize like Christians or Muslims. Whereas the history of the 19-20th century for Albanians outside of the borders of Albania was that of foreign national language schools like Serbian, Greek, Turkish, etc, trying to assimilate them linguistically and ethnically, majority successfully so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    There is no archeological support for some E-V13 MBA migration event into Albania. In fact there exists evidence to point that this yellow area in Southern Albania was populated by the Phrygians before LBA. You already touched this topic when you invoked Bryges and some toponyms, and you tried to connect E-V13 with them.
    Brygians in ancient sources appear in the Durres area, in Pelagonia, and bordering the Thesprotians. The "lausitz ware" which others argued was Brygian/Phrygian in Macedonia, was argued by Garasanin to be from Mediana, Dardanian according to his scheme (which I still am not really sold on entirely).

    So again, these arguments are heavily contested and fragmentary, but I believe there is something there. It is yet to be entirely untangled.

    I trust the TMRCA, and that Z5018 had an expansion in the middle bronze age. I suspect some of this will have made it to Italy, some to Greece, and some to Troy. Possibly some to Germany also. I believe this group was Albanoid.




    Last edited by Johane Derite; 06-11-2021 at 06:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Copy of my comment from elsewhere. This is especially @Johane Derite. It fits into what you have been saying.



    In this scheme E-V13 clades joined possibly the R-Z2705 carriers in Mediana III phase where Pshenichevo element dominated. We already know what hg Pshenichevo people belonged to mostly.

    In this scheme J-L283 is Glasinac-Mati related (which it is surely), while E-V13 is Kuc i Zi and Messapian related. And therefore E-V13 is more Albanian than J-L283..

    Btw these migrations to Southern Albania are just about the only way to explain the coming of E-V13 from an archeological POV. Anything else is
    2) saying V13 was forever in Albania since the Neolithic and it spreads from there in BA, IA
    3) V13 arrived to Albania in Late Antiquity/Early Medieval times.

    So anybody can choose his favorite option. I'd choose no 1. for the majority.
    This is a linguistic issue first, so we need to be secure which linguistic element travelled with which pottery. Pots not people scenarios also exist. There were Myceneans in South Italy also.

    Messapic Kalabria is where the densest Messapic inscriptions are found, yet this map doesn't suggest Matt ware there. If we compare the biggest Messapic tribal names, they majorly point to Dardanians:




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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This is a linguistic issue first, so we need to be secure which linguistic element travelled with which pottery. Pots not people scenarios also exist. There were Myceneans in South Italy also.

    Messapic Kalabria is where the densest Messapic inscriptions are found, yet this map doesn't suggest Matt ware there. If we compare the biggest Messapic tribal names, they majorly point to Dardanians:
    Those rough approximations where Messapians might have dwelled are secondary to archeological evidence. Their pottery has been identified and it is Matt-painted pottery with parallels in Southern Albania. Alojz Benac wrote on this when he weighted whether there wes a supposed connection between Iapodes and Messapians. His conclusion was that there wasn't. Later Liburnians during their domination of the seas when they reached S.Italy carried some Messapian elements to their native area.


    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I never claimed this, so I don't understand why you have to bring other users in, is the purpose to instigate fights or what? Very low level of conduct as usual.
    If you can talk the talk (like claiming elsewhere that all Bulgarian V13 descended from Early Medieval migrants from Albania) then walk the walk and substantiate what you claim. Yes there should be fights when laughable things are claimed. Idiotic claims shouldn't go unanswered. There is a difference between claims that are disputable and though unlikely they have a case and claims that are 100 % wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    My belief is that E-V13 is connected to the Albanoid linguistic group, of which proto-Albanian is one descendant of (the only surviving one). In the middle bronze age, Albanoid would have had far more descendants that died off generation after generation.
    Albanians are mentioned apr. 1000 years ago as a people in historical sources. It is reasonable to assume the ethnogenesis of proto-Albanians occurred few centuries before and that therefore expansive lineages that are 1000-1500 years old most likely formed the bulk of proto-Albanians. Additionally such linages should be found in both Ghegs and Tosks. Such lineages exist among the V13. They comprise 3-4 % in Albanians. Yet the most widespread seemingly proto-Albanian clade is not E-V13 or J-L283, it is R-Z2705.

    Is it not a bit odd that a Steppe descended R-Z2103 clade that is 1500 years old has managed to reach up to 15 % in Ghegs and 10 % in Tosks, and has had far more success than any other hg for no reason?? No. it is logical to assume proto-Albanian speakers were at one point in time almost exclusively R-Z2705. And that compared to R-Z2705 all other clades are less proto-Albanian. Many E-V13 and J-L283 clades try and fail to achieve such strength yet a single R-Z2103 does. Because this is the proto-Albanian clade??

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    My comment specifically stated that a middle bronze age expansion seemed to be suggested, not 1000-1500 years ago. That range was mentioned to try give one example about a period in which loss of diversity would have occurred. There were many other periods since the middle bronze age, not just 1500 years ago.

    One period could have also been the instability of the late-bronze age, in which CTS9320 expanded. Likewise instability in the Iron Age would also have lost some diversity.
    Even if there was a MBA expansion, it is still not likely it arrived to Albania at that time but during the subsequent LBA/EIA period. Because some archeological evidence points to that. While being convinced of strong "Albanoid"-E-V13 connection it seems as if you are not satisfied with the supposed EIA/LBA continuity and you try to extend it further. Reminiscent of Protochronists who are never satisfied with the supposed age of their precious ethnicity, so it has be be older and older..

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    So? That is irrelevant since we know that there is no positive correlation with the slavic linguistic branch, and that Bulgarian E-V13 for the major part must have been speaking a non-Bulgarian language. The language which this E-V13 in Bulgarians must have been speaking is Albanoid considering Bulgarian and Macedonian have Albanoid grammatical features not shared by other Slavic languages to the same extent.

    The MBA expansion of Z5018 was not only to Albania. I believe it was far more reaching, and will build my case on this in later posts.
    Z5018 does look to have had an initial MBA expansion and some centuries after that many of its clades had a LBA/EIA expansion.

    I am aware of some Bulgaro-Macedonian features that make them closer to Albanian, but I do not think this is due to some Illyrian-derived connection. It must be rather Thracian or Dardanian-related. Yes Bulgarian E-V13 spoke mostly another language, much if was Eastern Balkan Romance/proto-Romanian, and also remember that Bessian language was attested as a living language in 5th century AD. No such attestation exists for the Illyrian (part of Schramms thesis about Bessian proto-Albanians).

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Brygians in ancient sources appear in the Durres area, in Pelagonia, and bordering the Thesprotians. The "lausitz ware" which others argued was Brygian/Phrygian in Macedonia, was argued by Garasanin to be from Mediana, Dardanian according to his scheme (which I still am not really sold on entirely).

    So again, these arguments are heavily contested and fragmentary, but I believe there is something there. It is yet to be entirely untangled.

    I trust the TMRCA, and that Z5018 had an expansion in the middle bronze age. I suspect some of this will have made it to Italy, some to Greece, and some to Troy. Possibly some to Germany also. I believe this group was Albanoid.
    I agree that Brygians have their place somewhere. This Matt-painted pottery has been attributed to them also, other than Messapians, even Dorians. Possibly during the Bronze Age collapse movements some of these traits expanded to other groups involved in migrations.

    Theories about proto-Bryges actually involve claims that the Armenochori and Maliq III a-b cultures were the proto-Brygians. These cultures are Early Bronze Age Southernmost extensions of a complex that included even the Cetina culture in many respects. Rafc in his paper about EBA expansion of V13 included the Armenochori group as one vector of EBA E-V13 expansion from Cetina. Posibly this still holds some truth. I still am convinced that E-V13 began in proto-Cetina phase. There are some clades such as E-CTS5856* (not tested for BY3880) in Western Albania and Macedonians who are E-BY3880*, so Balkan clades without relatives closer than 4400/4500 years might be related to these cultures.

    And so that in the EBA the Shkumbin river was the border between the proto-Brygian to the South and proto-Illyrian elements to the North. "Proto-Illyrian" here being the southernmost extensions of the Posušje culture where J-L283 was found. And where I strongly suspect this new LBA/MBA Albanian J-L283 is from.

    If this is true then the Brygians would have occupied the area south of Shkumbin river, in LBA/EIA there was a migration of Brnjica group to this area which is one likely vector of how some E-V13 (younger) clades arrived to the area.

    Matt-painted pottery per Garašanin descends from S.Albania, so this could be a Brygian invention that was adopted by the proto-Messapian (Brnjica/Mediana related) migrants.

    And even Kuc i Zi complex has been attributed to them as well. These are some possible Brygo-Messapian connections, even though I believe they were quite distinct peoples.

    In any case people to the north and south of Shkumbin river were different people by origin, even though in Antiquity both areas were "Illyrian".
    Last edited by Huban; 06-13-2021 at 02:39 AM.

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