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Thread: A theory about the origin of E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post

    1) Archeological evidence clearly indicates that in the Middle Iron Age Illyrians expanded forcefully into the area, establishing their dominance and ensuring Dardania was politically Illyrian. But epigraphic evidence and archeological evidence points towards two other older layers that were indigenous in the area:
    2) Thracian as represented by EIA Pshenichevo influx as well as some earlier direct Gava influx. Confirmed by heavy Thracian epigraphic and onomastic influence.
    3) pre-Thracian, pre-Illyrian layer of MBA locals represented by the Mediana culture, and partially Brnjica as well. Confirmed by the existence of names that are of Indoeuropean origin but do not seem to be related to neither Illyrians or Thracians. As again some archeological and epigraphic evidence suggests, some of these parallels look to be related to proto-Paeonians. In any case this layer is likely related to Dardanians of Troy i.e. original pre-Illyrian/Thracian Dardanians.
    That is a cool theory. I somehow doubt that things were that clear cut, as in that homogeneous. But nonetheless, quite interesting, especially point 3.
    I do feel, too little attention is payed to z2103.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    That is a cool theory. I somehow doubt that things were that clear cut, as in that homogeneous. But nonetheless, quite interesting, especially point 3.
    I do feel, too little attention is payed to z2103.
    And yet a clade of Z2103 is the most Albanian cluster of any. It's certain that R-Z2705 is fundamentally related to proto-Albanians.

    Dardanian rulers all had Illyrian names, while the situation with "commoners" was a bit different especially in the East. This existence of slavery among them is attested. As is the existance of an "underclass" of people in Illyrian Ardiaei, similar to Spartan helots. Unlike Romans or Greeks where slavery was institutionalized Illyrians were not at such level but more resembling old military Aristocracy. Originally Roman slavery has its roots also in defeating and then enslaving other peoples.

    Albanian language does seem surely closer to Illyrian than Thracian. But it seems Illyrian in nouns (while also very un-Illyrian in some other nouns) in verbs not at all. Verbs are more resistant to change.. Albanian - Illyrian parallel could something similar to the modern English - French. Half on English vocabulary is Latin/French. Just take a look at words you wrote:

    theory - M. French
    doubt - Fr. douter
    somehow - compound where both parts are Germanic
    thing - Germanic
    clear - Old Fr.
    homogeneous - Medieval Latin
    nonetheless - Germanic
    interesting - old Fr. interesse
    especially - Old Fr. especial
    point - Fr. point
    attention - French
    feel - Germanic
    little - Germanic
    paid - Fr. payer

    Is English a Latin language? No.

    I read a very interesting linguistic analysis of the Shar mountain oronym. And the suggestion is that some proto-Albanian or proto-Vlach nomadic shepherds sometimes between 7th and 10th century met remnants of Dardanians whose toponym this should be originally and incredibly there is some Dardanian proper evidence for this! Not proto-Albanian though. I think Bruzmi tried, but Šar mountain does not fit Albanian phonetic development rules, but it seems they took it from the Dardanians, either they or the proto-Vlachs.. I wonder whether this event meant introduction of Dardanian lineages into the proto-Albanian pool. It looks very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    I read a very interesting linguistic analysis of the Shar mountain oronym. And the suggestion is that some proto-Albanian or proto-Vlach nomadic shepherds sometimes between 7th and 10th century met remnants of Dardanians whose toponym this should be originally and incredibly there is some Dardanian proper evidence for this! Not proto-Albanian though. I think Bruzmi tried, but Šar mountain does not fit Albanian phonetic development rules, but it seems they took it from the Dardanians, either they or the proto-Vlachs.. I wonder whether this event meant introduction of Dardanian lineages into the proto-Albanian pool. It looks very interesting.
    There is another piece of evidence confirming this Dardanian connection, and not only that it seems it is paired with the proto-Albanians again! If this is true (and it looks that way tbh) this would definitely mean that the proto-Albanians are from the Shop area originally or Eastern Dardania. Presumably descended from the most ancient layer of population there, which was pre-Illyrian and pre-Thracian. This fits the linguistically based Slavic adoption of the names of Štip and Niš from the mouth of proto-Albanians.

    And there seems to have been a Paleo-Balkan mish-mash in the Shop in late antiquity. The strongest unromanized group on the entire Balkan peninsula, the late Antiquity Bessoi (who were actually at the time all in the Shop area, even though centuries earlier they were supposed to have been located to the Southeast of Shop). Albanians may not descend of Thracians proper on linguistic grounds but it is possible that simply some incoming Bessi imposed their name in Late Antiquity upon the locals, so there was a large Paleo-Balkan mixture in the Shop that went by the name Bessoi even if most were not descended of "real" Bessi. Similar to various other examples, Hungarian "Scythians", and even people like the original Serbs or Croats. So I think everybody might have been correct in a sense. Schramm was correct in that a group of people migrated from the East into Arbanon in LA/EM, but they were not Thracian proper other than possibly in the name and partial genetic descent. Albanian authors are correct that Albanian has an Illyrian connection. This connection being the partial Illyrisation of the local Dardanian language (Mediana culture, Brnjica culture maybe) via the political domination of the Illyrian elite. Additionally proto-Albanians would have been ethnically and politically Illyrian in LIA as Dardanians.

    And these people were most likely R-Z2705, with Bessoi proper being some V13 clades, and with additional Dardanian locals being represented by some J-L283, E-V13 clades. In this scenario R-Z2705 would stem from the MBA/LBA locals of Dardania. It will be interesting to see what that R-CTS1450 find from Timachum Minus is.
    Last edited by Huban; 09-20-2021 at 02:32 PM. Reason: addition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    There is another piece of evidence confirming this Dardanian connection, and not only that it seems it is paired with the proto-Albanians again! If this is true (and it looks that way tbh) this would definitely mean that the proto-Albanians are from the Shop area originally or Eastern Dardania. Presumably descended from the most ancient layer of population there, which was pre-Illyrian and pre-Thracian. This fits the linguistically based Slavic adoption of the names of Štip and Niš from the mouth of proto-Albanians.

    And there seems to have been a Paleo-Balkan mish-mash in the Shop in late antiquity. The strongest unromanized group on the entire Balkan peninsula, the late Antiquity Bessoi (who were actually at the time all in the Shop area, even though centuries earlier they were supposed to have been located to the Southeast of Shop). Albanians may not descend of Thracians proper on linguistic grounds but it is possible that simply some incoming Bessi imposed their name in Late Antiquity upon the locals, so there was a large Paleo-Balkan mixture in the Shop that went by the name Bessoi even if most were not descended of "real" Bessi. Similar to various other examples, Hungarian "Scythians", and even people like the original Serbs or Croats. So I think everybody might have been correct in a sense. Schramm was correct in that a group of people migrated from the East into Arbanon in LA/EM, but they were not Thracian proper other than possibly in the name and partial genetic descent. Albanian authors are correct that Albanian has an Illyrian connection. This connection being the partial Illyrisation of the local Dardanian language (Mediana culture, Brnjica culture maybe) via the political domination of the Illyrian elite. Additionally proto-Albanians would have been ethnically and politically Illyrian in LIA as Dardanians.

    And these people were most likely R-Z2705, with Bessoi proper being some V13 clades, and with additional Dardanian locals being represented by some J-L283, E-V13 clades. In this scenario R-Z2705 would stem from the MBA/LBA locals of Dardania. It will be interesting to see what that R-CTS1450 find from Timachum Minus is.
    I do not think there is any conclusive evidence presented that would place the ancestral homeland of the Albanians or Proto-Albanians in eastern Dardania or Shopi (Niš itself does not belong in this ethno-geographic area) specifically. If toponyms showing Albanian phonological developments are to be taken into account then those located more to the west should not be excluded and only the eastern ones considered or displayed. For example the Albanian name for the city of Skopje, Shkupi, clearly developed from the older Scupi. There are other Albanian toponyms that show typical development in the Albanian language since at least the Roman period: Barbanna > Bun, Isamnus > Ishm, Lissus > Lezh (older Lesh), Mathis (Vibius Sequester) > Mat, etc.

    Schramm's theory of an early medieval movement of Proto-Albanians or early Albanians into the modern territory of Albania has no real historical basis or credibility, his theory as a whole has been quite easily deconstructed and put down. I might later make a post on another thread regarding his theories.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 09-20-2021 at 05:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    And yet a clade of Z2103 is the most Albanian cluster of any. It's certain that R-Z2705 is fundamentally related to proto-Albanians.

    Dardanian rulers all had Illyrian names, while the situation with "commoners" was a bit different especially in the East. This existence of slavery among them is attested. As is the existance of an "underclass" of people in Illyrian Ardiaei, similar to Spartan helots. Unlike Romans or Greeks where slavery was institutionalized Illyrians were not at such level but more resembling old military Aristocracy. Originally Roman slavery has its roots also in defeating and then enslaving other peoples.

    Albanian language does seem surely closer to Illyrian than Thracian. But it seems Illyrian in nouns (while also very un-Illyrian in some other nouns) in verbs not at all. Verbs are more resistant to change.. Albanian - Illyrian parallel could something similar to the modern English - French. Half on English vocabulary is Latin/French. Just take a look at words you wrote:

    theory - M. French
    doubt - Fr. douter
    somehow - compound where both parts are Germanic
    thing - Germanic
    clear - Old Fr.
    homogeneous - Medieval Latin
    nonetheless - Germanic
    interesting - old Fr. interesse
    especially - Old Fr. especial
    point - Fr. point
    attention - French
    feel - Germanic
    little - Germanic
    paid - Fr. payer

    Is English a Latin language? No.

    I read a very interesting linguistic analysis of the Shar mountain oronym. And the suggestion is that some proto-Albanian or proto-Vlach nomadic shepherds sometimes between 7th and 10th century met remnants of Dardanians whose toponym this should be originally and incredibly there is some Dardanian proper evidence for this! Not proto-Albanian though. I think Bruzmi tried, but Šar mountain does not fit Albanian phonetic development rules, but it seems they took it from the Dardanians, either they or the proto-Vlachs.. I wonder whether this event meant introduction of Dardanian lineages into the proto-Albanian pool. It looks very interesting.
    Sardis is also a mountain near Troy, speculated to be a refugium of sorts.
    Albeit I am not sure what is unclear about Sharr etymology. https://www.etymonline.com/word/shard
    PIE root *sker- (1) "to cut."



    Not sure if you have been to Sharr. For me it is quite evident how the PIE root connects to the mountain range.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I do not think there is any conclusive evidence presented that would place the ancestral homeland of the Albanians or Proto-Albanians in eastern Dardania or Shopi (Niš itself does not belong in this ethno-geographic area) specifically. If toponyms showing Albanian phonological developments are to be taken into account then those located more to the west should not be excluded and only the eastern ones considered or displayed. For example the Albanian name for the city of Skopje, Shkupi, clearly developed from the older Scupi. There are other Albanian toponyms that show typical development in the Albanian language since at least the Roman period: Barbanna > Bun, Isamnus > Ishm, Lissus > Lezh (older Lesh), Mathis (Vibius Sequester) > Mat, etc.
    I don't have time for that now but i know Barbanna > Bun, Lissus > Lezh are very contested and I have read very detailed views denying this continuity.

    Do you know who is mentioned to have inhabited Scupi in Late Antiquity, also people with tribal designation of Bessus.. And there are Bessian archeological traces all over Dardania in Late Antiquity..

    Also this culture was arguably by far the strongest Paleo-Balkan culture in the Balkans at the time. Komani culture from Albania really appears Byzantine, Christian, Avar even Slavic pagan before Paleo-Balkan. I don't think these people were early Albanians.. For the rest, some locals survived, some old Illyrian forts/settlements continued their existence but just barely.. And even then we see some foreign influences in Albanopolis I mentioned.

    the Bessian pagan culture end coincides with the the report Paulin, who in 366-415 AD speaks of the bishop Nicketas of Remesiana "who was converting the Bessi". So Bessi highlanders started abandoning their old pagan ways and their pagan culture can be followed until 4th century AD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Schramm's theory of an early medieval movement of Proto-Albanians or early Albanians into the modern territory of Albania has no real historical basis or credibility, his theory as a whole has been quite easily deconstructed and put down. I might later make a post on another thread regarding his theories.
    I'm afraid linguistic evidence points towards early Albanian speakers having something to do with Dardania, and also this seems to include maybe the only definite early distinctly Albanian toponym found anywhere.

    Why wouldn't people move?

    Bessi originally were from Southern Bulgaria, then in 1st century they are mentioned in Dobruja, and then in Late Antiquity they are found in Shop, and arguably they represent the strongest Paleo-Balkan element in existence at the time. And they match the territory of Dardania and some of these parallels (or all of them even).

    Some time ago while going through some Ottoman defters, I noticed something which attracted my attention. Various villages named Darda, Dardas. I used to think this was problematic because of some claims about earlier *dzarda/*dzardza, but in Orel I see the earlier form is *darda. I used to ask myself why are there so many pear-named villages in Albania. Many of these places no longer exist, though they existed 500+ years ago in Albania. So I came back to them, and I see they are roughly around the old Arbanon. And I looked for them in Shkoder area, and there are none there. That's a good sign. I see one of them is from the Mat area (no longer exists). So we know early Albanians are clearly connected to Arbanon, and could these Darda's be an indicator of a tribal group which settled the Arbanon in Early Medieval times and left traces there, that called themselves Dardanians?

    Other than Bessus, there were various LA people in Dardania carrying the designation Dardanus. So I'd propose

    - Bessoi , political leaders of the Late Antiquity Shop "Paleo-Balkanism"
    -- Dardanii, composed of:
    --- Illyrian Dardanii
    --- Dardanian Dardanii (connected to Dardanians from Troy, it is likely Pshenichevo people, tied with E-V13 carried with them some original Dardanians to Troy, Pshenichevo were present at Troy and they were present in Dardania)

    I would suggest that the late Bessian archeological culture included also the Dardanii.

    In 7th, 8th century AD as proposed by Schramm they move to Arbanon in Bulgarian expansion related events. These people possibly under umbrella of Bessoi still primarily called themselves Dardanians if these Darda's are anything to go by.
    Last edited by Huban; 09-20-2021 at 10:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Sardis is also a mountain near Troy, speculated to be a refugium of sorts.
    Albeit I am not sure what is unclear about Sharr etymology. https://www.etymonline.com/word/shard
    PIE root *sker- (1) "to cut."
    Shar mountain is not derived of that PIE root *sker but of a related root with -d at the end. Because in Antiquity sources it was Skard mountain. Which is clearly and very distinctly Illyrian but at the same time cannot derive directly of Albanian but there is evidence it derives from Illyrian Dardanians who gave it to early Albanians and who in turn passed it to Slavs. There is an Albanian remnant from which sharr stems from, which escaped the dominant sk>h change but Shar mountain cannot derive from this remnant.. Also there is another issue of Albanian retaining -rd- as -rdh- and -rd->-r goes against the Albanian phonetic development rules.
    Last edited by Huban; 09-20-2021 at 10:47 PM. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Shar mountain is not derived of that PIE root *sker but of a related root with -d at the end. Because in Antiquity sources it was Skard mountain. Which is clearly and very distinctly Illyrian but at the same time cannot derive directly of Albanian but there is evidence it derives from Illyrian Dardanians who gave it to early Albanians and who in turn passed it to Slavs. There is an Albanian remnant from which sharr stems from, which escaped the dominant sk>h change but Shar mountain cannot derive from this remnant.. Also there is another issue of Albanian retaining -rd- as -rdh- and -rd->-r goes against the Albanian phonetic development rules.
    Would love to read this source, with the Skard. Could you point me in the right direction.
    Otherwise, I would think there is not even need for much change from PIE *sker to Alb sharr. Here is the entry regarding PIE *sker https://www.etymonline.com/word/*sker-
    Meaning, imo, that whoever gave the name Sharr, *Sker or any derivate of such to the mountain range, likely had PIE derived lingustics. While what I got from your point is that these early Dardanians that had a connection to Troy were not IE (please correct me if I missunderstood).
    Alas I am not very invested in this. And I think you know my opinion on reconstructed linguistics. Lets say I find it a bit nonscientific. Unless ML algorithms are aplied, removing human bias. I have shared such papers in the past.

    And I personally believe, E-V13, just like z2103, and l283 could have easily been, part of such movements, even if in different phases/waves.







    Sources:

    1)reddit

    2)https://www.researchgate.net/profile...-branching.png

    3)https://brill.com/view/journals/ieul...cle-p110_3.xml


    This paper uses ML, there are quite a few ways the author went at it. This is just image 25, the last one. In various model the position of Albanian may vary I recommend the paper.

    Figure 25
    MLE tree with bootstrap scores (NJ start tree)
    Citation: Indo-European Linguistics 8, 1 (2020) ; 10.1163/22125892-20201000
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 09-20-2021 at 11:41 PM. Reason: Did not paste correct source. (Brill)
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    Nice, you guys are making some more progress Before it was just "Bulgaria" and now we've been placed in Dardania (modern ~Kosovo)

    In all seriousness though, the Bessi hypothesis doesn't make any sense genetically speaking considering the available data. You keep bringing up R-Z2705 as a very important subclade for early Albanians (which as you know I would agree), although I would argue there is others that were probably just as important among early Albanians. As you know, modern distributions are as a result of genetic bottlenecks and founder effects. Anyway, even with R-Z2705 there is no phylogenetic evidence (upstream/downstream) that it expanded from modern Bulgaria or eastern Balkans. I believe there is no need to go into details as the Y trees speak for themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Would love to read this source, with the Skard. Could you point me in the right direction.
    Otherwise, I would think there is not even need for much change from PIE *sker to Alb sharr. Here is the entry regarding PIE *sker https://www.etymonline.com/word/*sker-
    Meaning, imo, that whoever gave the name Sharr, *Sker or any derivate of such to the mountain range, likely had PIE derived lingustics.
    Actually I also see now sources claiming Alb. sharr stems from Lat. serra.

    Bolded: similar has occurred except it's not PIE *sker but (late) Dardanian *sker (stemming from *skerd<*skard) which became Albanian Shar Mountain and from Alb. Slavic Šar mountain. Illyrian Dardanians transmitted this to early Albanians. But it did not develop in early Albanians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    While what I got from your point is that these early Dardanians that had a connection to Troy were not IE (please correct me if I missunderstood).
    You misunderstood. Dardanians of Troy should have been IE by all means. Just another branch of IE, judging by the archeological evidence, these were neither Illyrians nor Thracians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Alas I am not very invested in this. And I think you know my opinion on reconstructed linguistics. Lets say I find it a bit nonscientific. Unless ML algorithms are aplied, removing human bias. I have shared such papers in the past.

    And I personally believe, E-V13, just like z2103, and l283 could have easily been, part of such movements, even if in different phases/waves.
    Well proto-Albanian has been reconstructed. One has to be very careful, and I am extremely careful when it comes to etymologies. Also I am somebody who knows alot about linguistics. Though I haven't studied Paleo-Balkan languages, now I have begun to grasp some sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Nice, you guys are making some more progress Before it was just "Bulgaria" and now we've been placed in Dardania (modern ~Kosovo)

    In all seriousness though, the Bessi hypothesis doesn't make any sense genetically speaking considering the available data. You keep bringing up R-Z2705 as a very important subclade for early Albanians (which as you know I would agree), although I would argue there is others that were probably just as important among early Albanians. As you know, modern distributions are as a result of genetic bottlenecks and founder effects. Anyway, even with R-Z2705 there is no phylogenetic evidence (upstream/downstream) that it expanded from modern Bulgaria or eastern Balkans. I believe there is no need to go into details as the Y trees speak for themselves.
    Well there are some connections with the East within R-Z2705. There is some evidence to suggest R-Y182782 was some important Albanian-Vlach contact clade as it occurs in multiple Romanians and Aromanians. So clades like these should represent the proposed early Albanian- early Romanian/Vlach cohabitation.

    My late arguments about Shop, Bessi, Dardania are not at all based on genetic evidence or anything "political". I just have learned alot about Paleo-Balkan languages in the past few months. And believe me, when I take linguistics into my hands I can do things. For example I have in few sentences at poreklo debunked the thesis of Serbian linguist Aleksander Loma who claimed that the Serbs are related to Sarmatian Serboi. That's because I am semi-fluent in Persian, Ossetian while speaking basic Pashto and Wakhi. My new argumentation is based on his (and of some others) reconstruction and deliberation on the etymology of the Shar mountain. And I do believe Albanians passed this to early Slavs, while picking it up from (Illyrian) Dardanians. That's one of the reasons why Albanians were I think likely in Dardania 1500 ybp. Others are Nish, Shtip et...

    Btw. I and various other people have no difficulties in finding suitable etymologies for various Scythian, Sarmatian, Alan names. There is a world of difficulty when it comes to Albanian-Illyrian etc parallels.. That's another reason why I think Albanian falls outside of Illyrian-Thracian mainstream..

    I know Albanian is unrelated to Thracian bar few influences. But also I know Albanian is hard to derive from Illyrian despite some even strong lexical Illyrian influence in Albanian. So the question is what is Albanian? Based on what I've seen it's neither Daco-Thracian nor Illyrian. And as there is some linguistic evidence really implicating Late Antiquity/Early medieval Albanian speakers with Dardania, I am forced to say that I think Albanian stems from the attested non-Illyrian, non-Thracian indigenous Dardanian element, which spoke some other IE language. These are "real" Dardanians ofc. Illyrians are just Middle Iron Age conquerors who adopted that name..

    Albanians IMO should not take this as followers of Enver Hoxha's dogma (as in his era and under his direction began the exploration of Albanian-Illyrian connection), but rather there are pro's of this scenario i.e. Dardanians are older people than Illyrians..

    So, if Albanians are related to these Bessoi then these Bessoi were Thracian just in name, not in language, or there were some Dardanians under the label as well which is more likely. There were actually other than ethnic Bessians in LA also people with Dardanus as their label..

    There are some other links within small clusters, especially under E-V13 which point clearly towards Bulgaria. Both by diversity and aDNA.. Plus ofc. Bulgaria is a very diverse place which needs more testing.. Even more so for Macedonia, and SE Serbia too.

    To add about R-Z2705, ofc there are other very important clusters, but really this is the only Albanian cluster whose age is around 1500 ybp and that makes up more than 10 % of the Albanian population.. And also what about a cluster being young, expansive and found in strong numbers in both Ghegs and Tosks, which means it predates their separation.. How many clusters can boast that? Very few. Your own cluster has a single Tosk from a scientific paper despite being a major Gheg cluster.
    Last edited by Huban; 09-21-2021 at 12:55 AM.

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