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Thread: A theory about the origin of E-V13

  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    hmm. the search bar says there's 274 Results from Greece, out of those 49 E. However, if I go to E-M96>country report, there's actually 112 E samples from Greece.

    2 are non E-M35, and the rest is E-M35. out of those 54 are E-v13, 4 E-V22, 3 E-V12, 13 E-m34, and 3 E-PF2546, and the rest is tested only for E-M35 or E-M78.
    If we ignore those wich aren't tested deep enough, there's 54 definite E-V13, and 25 definite non-E-V13. So there's around 70% V13 in E, which is similar to that STR study.
    The search bar does not say how many testers there are, rather how many branches there are with somebody whose last known ancestor was from Greece. To know how many testers there are on FTDNA for each country, you need to view the the country report of the root node (A-PR2921).

    Code:
    23abc_AncestryDNA_scaled,0.110408,0.151314,-0.0290383,-0.0507112,0.0018465,-0.0156179,-0.00305514,-0.00138456,-0.00899905,0.00911181,0.00243583,-0.00149867,-0.00431116,0.00344057,-0.00773606,0.00106072,0.00195576,0.00152026,0.00251396,-0.00550264,-0.00786113,-0.00197844,0.0025882,0.00168699,0.000957998

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  3. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    What, you think we're lying to you? Seriously? The country report shows birthplace of your earliest known ancestor, not ethnicity. I have Bulgarian and Turkish flags as country reports because my great-grand-folks were born in Eastern Rumelia and the Ottoman Empire, respectively.
    23abc is talking precisely about the samples from the FTDNA's haplotree with a Greek flag, at least I was under that impression.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/A

    The Greek project is a completely different topic. It could also include a bunch of different ethnicities, depends on who the admins allow to join.
    Some projects allow literally anybody to join, some have a more strict administration.

    anyway in the Greek project there's currently 26 V13 and 10 non-V13, which is also within the range of other sources.

  4. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    FTDNA's tree depends on many variables, such as different ethnicities, preference to test further, diaspora, activity of the administrators of different projects to persuade people to test further etc.
    I am not taking anything out of their tree but simply looking at it you can't possibly know if all the testers are ethnic Greeks. Different thing is that many have preference to test SNPs or Big Y simply by already knowing of the broad haplogroup they belong based on their STRs.
    10.35% R1a in Bulgarians and 11.24% of J1 in Greeks doesn't make any sense unless in this statistics there are included minorities such as Turks, Jews etc. Doesn't make sense because none of the available studies have reported such a big difference in this haplogroups among the Bulgarians and the Greeks. Neither Cyprus have that much of J1 as Greece does wich would mean there is quite a MENA y-dna in Greeks but that simply is not true.

    Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots

    This study have some good statistics based on this and different studies for Greeks from different regions and Cyprus.
    In the supplementary tables pone.0179474.s014 and pone.0179474.s013 you will find the following results for E-M78(E-V13 + E-V22) in Greeks:

    Population n E1b1b-M78
    Greek Cypriots 344 12.8%
    Turkish Cypriots 380 13.9%
    Greeks Crete 369 6.5%
    Greeks Peloponnese 179 30.2%
    Greeks Central 199 18.6%
    Greeks Thessaly 72 34.7%
    Greeks Macedonia 142 19.9%
    Greeks Thrace 41 17.1%
    Greeks Asia Minor 105 14.3%

    I agree there are peculiarities but that's what people were referring to when saying that E-V13 is one of the most numerous haplogroups in Greece.

    Heraclides and Voskarides studies about the Greek Cypriots both reported 9.9% and 7.3% of E-V13 in Greek Cypriots with combined percentage of 8.2% out of 975 Greek Cypriots.
    I do agree that having the last known ancestor come from Greece does not mean they are an ethnic Greek, but in general this will not have a large effect on the ending distributions for most countries. Countries with significant Ashkenazi testers will have the largest discrepancy. I don't think Greece should be a country with such an effect, or do you think Romaniote/Sephardic testers are so numerous they would skew the stats?
    Code:
    23abc_AncestryDNA_scaled,0.110408,0.151314,-0.0290383,-0.0507112,0.0018465,-0.0156179,-0.00305514,-0.00138456,-0.00899905,0.00911181,0.00243583,-0.00149867,-0.00431116,0.00344057,-0.00773606,0.00106072,0.00195576,0.00152026,0.00251396,-0.00550264,-0.00786113,-0.00197844,0.0025882,0.00168699,0.000957998

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  6. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    23abc is talking precisely about the samples from the FTDNA's haplotree with a Greek flag, at least I was under that impression.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/A

    The Greek project is a completely different topic. It could also include a bunch of different ethnicities, depends on who the admins allow to join.
    Some projects allow literally anybody to join, some have a more strict administration.

    anyway in the Greek project there's currently 26 V13 and 10 non-V13, which is also within the range of other sources.
    I understand the limitations you are mentioning, but these apply to all projects, not just the Greek DNA project. Afaik, administrators told me that they accept people from other ethnic groups if they have oral tradition and/or know for a fact (ie documents) that their earliest known male ancestor was ethnically Greek. So you get other groups (ie Americans) with English names in the group, for example. I don't know if someone joins for malicious intent (ie to skew results), I don't think anyone can control this, but, like I said, this applies to every single DNA group there.

    And 26 E-V13s in a total of 766 is nowhere near the ballpark of what is usually quoted, erroneously imo, which was my original point.
    dosas: 56.25% Greek_Macedonia + 43.75% Greek_Trabzon @ 1.769
    wife: 50% English + 50% Irish @ 1.837
    kid1: 56.25% English + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.817
    kid2: 56.25% English_Cornwall + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.866

  7. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    I do agree that having the last known ancestor come from Greece does not mean they are an ethnic Greek, but in general this will not have a large effect on the ending distributions for most countries. Countries with significant Ashkenazi testers will have the largest discrepancy. I don't think Greece should be a country with such an effect, or do you think Romaniote/Sephardic testers are so numerous they would skew the stats?
    There is simply too much of J1, G and L in your Greece sample to find it reliable and representative for the ethnic Greeks. Just go over all the studies in which many Greek scientist also took participation and you will find big discrepancy between the numbers you reported from FTDNA and the available studies for ethnic Greeks.
    I don't know the situation in Greece with the ethnic minorities but historically I know that Thessaloniki was the most Jewish city in the Balkans. And also many Turks have paternal origin from Greece, let's not forget them.
    Target: Aspar_scaled
    Distance: 1.9646% / 0.01964602 | ADC: 1x RC
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  8. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    I do agree that having the last known ancestor come from Greece does not mean they are an ethnic Greek, but in general this will not have a large effect on the ending distributions for most countries. Countries with significant Ashkenazi testers will have the largest discrepancy. I don't think Greece should be a country with such an effect, or do you think Romaniote/Sephardic testers are so numerous they would skew the stats?
    Depends on the country/ethnicity really. The Romanian project is apparently very biased towards the Romanian Jews. But that's just the public samples from the Romanian project. The tree also includes many non-public samples, so it could actually be less biased.

    It's also possible that many Greeks with an ancestor from outside modern Greece just reported Greece as their location, so those also appear with a Greek flag in the tree.

    Most precise will always be public projects with known surnames and locations. But those can often have a lack of samples.

  9. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    There is simply too much of J1, G and L in your Greece sample to find it reliable and representative for the ethnic Greeks. Just go over all the studies in which many Greek scientist also took participation and you will find big discrepancy between the numbers you reported from FTDNA and the available studies for ethnic Greeks.
    I don't know the situation in Greece with the ethnic minorities but historically I know that Thessaloniki was the most Jewish city in the Balkans. And also many Turks have paternal origin from Greece, let's not forget them.

    I don't understand why would J1s and Gs be weird results , the second even more so than the first. L1b2b* is quite common for Pontic Greeks, we think it's a native Colchian marker.
    Last edited by dosas; 08-04-2021 at 09:20 AM.
    dosas: 56.25% Greek_Macedonia + 43.75% Greek_Trabzon @ 1.769
    wife: 50% English + 50% Irish @ 1.837
    kid1: 56.25% English + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.817
    kid2: 56.25% English_Cornwall + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.866

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  11. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    I understand the limitations you are mentioning, but these apply to all projects, not just the Greek DNA project. Afaik, administrators told me that they accept people from other ethnic groups if they have oral tradition and/or know for a fact (ie documents) that their earliest known male ancestor was ethnically Greek. So you get other groups (ie Americans) with English names in the group, for example. I don't know if someone joins for malicious intent (ie to skew results), I don't think anyone can control this, but, like I said, this applies to every single DNA group there.

    And 26 E-V13s in a total of 766 is nowhere near the ballpark of what is usually quoted, erroneously imo, which was my original point.
    Yes. Most of the scientific studies also test the general population of a country, and not just one ethnicity. Often from the big cities, which have more foreign immigrants than the rest of the country.

    but given all sources, around 70/30 v13/non-V13 seems our best guess for Greece, do you agree?

  12. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    Yes. Most of the scientific studies also test the general population of a country, and not just one ethnicity.
    If they did, then that would skew results in favor of Albanian clades, since they are the biggest migrant group in the country.
    dosas: 56.25% Greek_Macedonia + 43.75% Greek_Trabzon @ 1.769
    wife: 50% English + 50% Irish @ 1.837
    kid1: 56.25% English + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.817
    kid2: 56.25% English_Cornwall + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.866

  13. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    I don't understand why would J1s and Gs be weird results , the second even more so than the first. L1b2b* is quite common for Pontic Greeks, we think it's a native Colchian marker.
    No, I am not saying that J1 and G are weird results. I am just saying that their percentages are overblown in FTDNA's statistics posted by 23abc. It doesn't go hand in hand with all the available DNA studies regarding the Greeks. Those are percentages that look alike to some West Asian country. I don't know, there might be over representation of Pontic Greeks in this sample of FTDNA
    Target: Aspar_scaled
    Distance: 1.9646% / 0.01964602 | ADC: 1x RC
    57.6 Macedonian
    42.4 Greek_Central_Macedonia

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