A theory about the origin of E-V13

[capsian]

Those contacts existed with E-V13 since Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni. That's for sure, because Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni was heavy in R-Z93 and they were in contact with all major source groups.
Later Channelled and Stamped Ware had multiple large contacts with what remained of Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni and the Scythians later.

For the Eneolithic period we have truly absolutely nothing. But contacts with Tripolye-Cucuteni, Petresti, Epi-Lengyel etc with steppe groups must have happened and led to Cotofeni.
Whether there was backflow to the steppe that early is pure conjecture.
A lot is possible and thinkable.

Please i need information about: Tripolye-Cucuteni, Petresti, Epi-Lengyel

[Riverman]

Please i need information about: Tripolye-Cucuteni, Petresti, Epi-Lengyel

You can Google them, but you will find a lot in this thread also.
Both Lengyel and Tripolye-Cucuteni are confirmed for having had E1b1b. Lengyel more so, since we have fewer samples with a higher frequency.
Tiszapolgar is close to Petresti, no E1b1b so far. Petresti itself being not tested yet afaik.
You could sum all these and more up under "pre-steppe Copper Age Carpatho-Balkan people".

[Decivs]

I wrote Daco-Thracians and Daco-Thracian admixed people. The latter applies to different Illyrian-related groups in the contact zone, especially in those areas in which they adopted cremation after contacts with Channelled Ware and had later intensive contacts with Basarabi.
By the time of Himera no longer more than 90 percent of the E-V13 must have been Daco-Thracian. But 400-600 years earlier, they surely were in the Transitional Period.

So, these Himera E-V13 are like 90% Illyrian-like and maybe 10% Daco-Thracian (no idea why) but they're still called Daco-Thracian by you.

Got it, personal preference/agenda it is.

[capsian]

So, these Himera E-V13 are like 90% Illyrian-like and maybe 10% Daco-Thracian (no idea why) but they're still called Daco-Thracian by you.

Got it, personal preference/agenda it is.

Maybe @Riverman he is thinks E-V13 is related with Thracian he is right because mostly samples ancient Thracian was E-V13 just one was R-Z93
but there of course some subclades western Balkanian was belong a people Illyrian have Haplogroup E-V13
but i thinks mostly Illyrian was R-Z2103 and J-L283 this according ( samples ancient)

[Riverman]

So, these Himera E-V13 are like 90% Illyrian-like and maybe 10% Daco-Thracian (no idea why) but they're still called Daco-Thracian by you.

Got it, personal preference/agenda it is.

We don't know what ethnolinguistic affiliation they had, we have no actual Daco-Thracian samples (confirmed) other than the very South Eastern Thracian samples. And I wrote about Daco-Thracian and Daco-Thracian admixed people. Because the origin of the haplogroup is Daco-Thracian.
It is like haplogroup N being not Pre-Germanic Indoeuropean, but you may consider some subclades later Viking and Germanic, for example. But N originally was Uralic/Finno-Ugrian in Northern Europe, and not Pre-Germanic/Proto-Germanic.

In the same way some subclades of E-V13, while all being originally Daco-Thracian and not Illyrian, might be considered part of specific Illyrian people later. Like e.g. we might find Dardanian and Iapodian subclades of E-V13 in the Iron Age.

Another issue is that we got multiple E-V13 carriers from different branches (!), no J-L283 or other haplogroups. That in itself is very suspicious. The Illyrians were very clan based and patrilinear, the Thracians too, but they had fealty and hierarchy as well. Anyway, there won't be an E-V13 dominated Illyrian people, those don't exist. So finding multiple E-V13 branches without classical Illyrian J-L283 means these were likely a different people which happened to be autosomally similar. Might be wrong, but that's my current position.

Maybe @Riverman he is thinks E-V13 is related with Thracian he is right because mostly samples ancient Thracian was E-V13 just one was R-Z93
but there of course some subclades western Balkanian was belong a people Illyrian have Haplogroup E-V13
but i thinks mostly Illyrian was R-Z2103 and J-L283 this according ( samples ancient)

R-Z93 too makes sense for Thracians, which had long lasting contacts with the Western steppe R-Z93 people, from Noua-Sabatinovka, Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians - while Illyrians had much less so. It fits with the Caucasian profile for both one R-Z93 and an E-V13! So its definitely more Eastern Balkan-Carpathian in this respect as well. Take this together with what I wrote above, and Illyrians are definitely not the most likely option.
I expect E-V13 and R-Z93 to have extensively mixed in the Western steppe zone and that's how both ended up, together, in e.g. Central and North East Asia too, in Uyghurs, Mongols, Hui and Northern Han Chinese, where we find, in all these groups, R-Z93 : E-V13 in a specific ratio. Obviously E-V13 is the smaller minority, but its there, in a stable pattern, almost whereever R-Z93 is.

Channelled Ware and Stamped Pottery groups from the Thracian Hallstatt and general Iron Age Thracian sphere lived on the steppe and had contacts to the steppe. Especially the forest steppe zone. Chernoles had strong Thracian influences:


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...und_750_BC.png

Basarabi was the main Daco-Thracian culture of the Iron Age.

Needless to say that the Greeks gathered a lot of their slaves and mercenaries from the Black Sea coastal area:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ack_Sea%29.svg

That's where the Caucasian shifted R-Z93 and E-V13 likely came from too, from the Eastern coast of the Black Sea.

[capsian]

We


R-Z93 too makes sense for Thracians, which had long lasting contacts with the Western steppe R-Z93 people, from Noua-Sabatinovka, Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians - while Illyrians had much less so. It fits with the Caucasian profile for both one R-Z93 and an E-V13! So its definitely more Eastern Balkan-Carpathian in this respect as well. Take this together with what I wrote above, and Illyrians are definitely not the most likely option.
I expect E-V13 and R-Z93 to have extensively mixed in the Western steppe zone and that's how both ended up, together, in e.g. Central and North East Asia too, in Uyghurs, Mongols, Hui and Northern Han Chinese, where we find, in all these groups, R-Z93 : E-V13 in a specific ratio. Obviously E-V13 is the smaller minority, but its there, in a stable pattern, almost whereever R-Z93 is.

There Uyghurs, Mongols have Haplogroup E-V13?

[Riverman]

There Uyghurs, Mongols have Haplogroup E-V13?

Of course. You find more details here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....E-V13-in-China

There are both statistics and individual testers from e.g. China on YFull and FTDNA. It is a miniscule percentage, but like so often, it is more stable and widespread than other Carpatho-Balkan haplogroups and it appears to be in an almost fixed ratio with R-Z93.

[capsian]

Of course. You find more details here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....E-V13-in-China

There are both statistics and individual testers from e.g. China on YFull and FTDNA. It is a miniscule percentage, but like so often, it is more stable and widespread than other Carpatho-Balkan haplogroups and it appears to be in an almost fixed ratio with R-Z93.

I have been seen also Haplogroup I2 found also in china

[Riverman]

I have been seen also Haplogroup I2 found also in china

You can find almost everything in China, the question is how consistently, in which regions and at which frequency. For E-V13 the strongest link I see is clearly with R-Z93 in Central-East Asia in particular, which might point to a common dispersal with first Scytho-Sarmatians/Iranians and later Turkic people which assimilated their remains.

[CopperAxe]

You can find almost everything in China, the question is how consistently, in which regions and at which frequency. For E-V13 the strongest link I see is clearly with R-Z93 in Central-East Asia in particular, which might point to a common dispersal with first Scytho-Sarmatians/Iranians and later Turkic people which assimilated their remains.

Or through central asian peoples under achaemenid/hellenistic dominion such as Sogdians considering they had a significant presence in China and E-V13 had been found in such a context already, while it is entirely lacking in the hundreds of iron age steppe samples we have inluding those from China.