Page 45 of 53 FirstFirst ... 354344454647 ... LastLast
Results 441 to 450 of 528

Thread: A theory about the origin of E-V13

  1. #441
    Registered Users
    Posts
    217
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Mr. Bruzmi AKA "Brnjica doesn't exist".
    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    We've been through this already. Obviously there is a tendency of some modern Kosovo Albanian authors to disprove of Brnjica existence because that violates the phantom non-existent 3000 year Kosova/Dardania continuity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Different archeologists have said something about two cultures that even have migratory connections (Brnjica-Devolli) and you deny their existence.
    What you don't understand is that a material culture or a group exists when a set of sites exhibit similar structural features which separate them from other sites to a degree that can justify their classification as part of the same group (not just the regional variant of a wider group). The "Brnjica culture" hypothesis was proposed at a time when no actual excavation projects existed in the proposed sites. As of 2020, basic classification has disproven the hypothesis and these sites can't be grouped as part of a "Brnjica material culture" simply because no archaeological taxonomy can be applied in a way which would result in such a classification. Archaeological taxonomy can be very complex and/or problematic in itself. (Reconciling material cultures in archaeology with genetic data requires robust cultural evolutionary taxonomies)

    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    They spoil the uniform Illyrian Glasinac-Mati picture. So the only logical explanation is that you consider an affront (to Albanian unity) some cultural heterogeneity in the area.
    There is no "uniform" Glasinac-Mati because no material culture is uniform. Every settlement will be at the very least slightly different than another one inhabited by people who speak the same language and have the same ancestors. Furthermore, material cultures are not the same as linguistic cultures or kin groups. The same kin group can create different material cultures and people from different kin groups can be part of the same material culture. The idea that some users on internet fora have according to which material culture = linguistic culture = kin group culture = patrilineal relations is absurd.

    Cycladic culture is classified as different than the material culture (later known as Minoan) which developed in Crete, but it's pretty obvious nowadays that these were the same people and probably spoke related languages. The people of EBA Mokrin "belonged" to the Maros culture but men from three hgs (I2a, R1b, J2b) have been found in Mokrin so far.



    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Let's say there is no Brnjica group. Then, I say most Albanian V13 arrived to Albania 1000-1500 as Bessoi of Gotftried Schramm. Plenty of such candidates in Albanians already. You'd prefer that? Be my guest.
    Schramm's theory was effectively dead from the very beginning because it can't explain 1)why the Latin substratum in Albanian evolved both in contact with Dalmatian and Eastern Balkan Romance 2)why Albanian has Doric Greek loanwords if it was spoken far away from places like Dyrrhachium 3)why Messapic and Proto-Albanian have so many cognates 4)how Albanian became integral in the formation of the Balkan Sprachbund. These issues made Schramm's theory basically impossible and something which is mostly discussed on internet fora.

    New generations of linguists focus on the features of Proto-Albanian and the formation of the Balkan Sprachbund in order to locate Proto-Albanian. The three core languages of the Balkan Sprachbund are: Albanian, Aromanian, Macedonian Slavic because these are the only three languages which have been in constant contact to each other despite the fact that Bulgarian also shows some Balkan Sprachbund features. This effectively rules out any heavy Proto-Albanian presence east of eastern Serbia (Nish). (That in all plausible theories Dardania is a core area where Proto-Albanian was spoken should be obvious by now.)

    Eric Prendergast (2017), The Origin and Spread of Locative Determiner Omission in the Balkan Linguistic Area :

    Despite these difficulties, scholars versed in the literature have made suggestions about possible paleo-Balkan lineages for Albanian, which would clarify the timeline and geographical range of the earliest contact between Albanian and Late Latin (later to become Balkan Romance). Illyrian or Thracian are forwarded as the primary candidates (Çabej 1971:42), with Illyrian having some scholarly consensus (Thunmann 1774:240, Kopitar 1829:85, Katičić 1976:184-188, Polomé 1982:888)—but there is a significant lack of verified inscriptions (Çabej 1971:41, Woodard 2004:11, Mann 1977: 1) and it is unclear whether ‘Illyrian’ as a term used in Roman records even referred to a single common language from which modern Albanian could descend (Hamp 1994). There is, however, evidence that Albanian was spoken over a broader territory in the Balkans than the
    contemporary range of territory occupied by its speaker community today (Çabej 1971:41, Demiraj 2004:98, 104). A number of important toponyms in Macedonia, southern Serbia, and Kosovo show reflexes of Albanian phonological developments; e.g. Astibos > Albanian Shtip, Slavic Štip (in eastern Macedonia), Naissus > Albanian Nish, Slavic Niš (in southern Serbia) (Pulaha 1984:11). The toponym Dobreta, because of its greater distance as mentioned above places, the potential range of the predecessor to Albanian up to the banks of the Danube. This was also the range of significant Latin influence (north of the Jireček Line, which is recognized as the customary division of a northern zone of Latin language influence and from a southern zone of Greek language influence, [Jireček 1911, Friedman 2001b:29]) and corresponded to the area inhabited by pastoral speakers of Balkan Romance well into the Middle Ages. This fits well with a theory forwarded in particular by Hamp (1994) that Albanian is the result of an autochthonous Balkan language that has undergone partial Romanization, while Balkan Romance represents a full language shift, whereby the early form of this Balkan language (its “proto-Albanian” linguistic predecessor) was fully absorbed into Late Latin.



    (To be continued)

  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Bruzmi For This Useful Post:

     excine (06-14-2021),  Johane Derite (06-14-2021),  Kelmendasi (06-15-2021),  peloponnesian (06-16-2021),  rafc (06-14-2021)

  3. #442
    Registered Users
    Posts
    566

    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    So you're saying all this time you were talking about L618 SNP, and not about the L618 clade/level? Why would you talk about formation and TMRCA dates of a single SNP, in a clade with 40 more SNPs at the same level? Since they are all currently at the same level, by definition we can't know their chronological order. And it's beyond me why are you singling out L618, it is just one randomly picked SNP to name a subclade, it could very well been any of the other 40 SNPs.
    Why shouldn't I? I was talking about the possibility of thea birth of this SNP marker in Europe and that it's possible to have been near TMRCA of the subclade defined by it and other 40+ SNPs mostly because this SNP L618, has been found entirely in an European context until now.

    As for the rest, I'm pretty well aware about my haplogroup and it's origins and firm believer that it was born in Europe while it's ancestors came with the first farmers through the Levant and Anatolia. I think I was quite clear on that and mentioned it many times therefore I certainly don't think that a clade that defines TMRCA of it's ancestor of 11900 ybp was already present in Europe by that time.

    I think we discuss unnecessarily long about this and you've been just picky for some reason...
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  4. #443
    Registered Users
    Posts
    566

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Despite these difficulties, scholars versed in the literature have made suggestions about possible paleo-Balkan lineages for Albanian, which would clarify the timeline and geographical range of the earliest contact between Albanian and Late Latin (later to become Balkan Romance). Illyrian or Thracian are forwarded as the primary candidates (Çabej 1971:42), with Illyrian having some scholarly consensus (Thunmann 1774:240, Kopitar 1829:85, Katičić 1976:184-188, Polomé 1982:888)—but there is a significant lack of verified inscriptions (Çabej 1971:41, Woodard 2004:11, Mann 1977: 1) and it is unclear whether ‘Illyrian’ as a term used in Roman records even referred to a single common language from which modern Albanian could descend (Hamp 1994). There is, however, evidence that Albanian was spoken over a broader territory in the Balkans than the contemporary range of territory occupied by its speaker community today (Çabej 1971:41, Demiraj 2004:98, 104). A number of important toponyms in Macedonia, southern Serbia, and Kosovo show reflexes of Albanian phonological developments; e.g. Astibos > Albanian Shtip, Slavic Štip (in eastern Macedonia), Naissus > Albanian Nish, Slavic Niš (in southern Serbia) (Pulaha 1984:11). The toponym Dobreta, because of its greater distance as mentioned above places, the potential range of the predecessor to Albanian up to the banks of the Danube.
    There is also the mountain Maleš in Eastern Macedonia. I find it interesting that these toponyms that could of been transferred to the Slavic speakers by Albanophone ones occur mainly in North-Eastern Macedonia and South-Eastern Serbia which by itself wasn't an Illyrian territory. West of that line the toponyms seem to not have been learned through an Albanophone agent. For example Skopje probably comes from the Greek Σκόπια/Skopja and not the Albanian Škupi, Skadar as well doesn't seem to come through an Albonophone agent, let alone other toponymy throughout Albania that has distinct Latin(Драч/Drach), Greek(Ѓирокастро/Gjirokastro) or entirely Slavic(Вајуса/Vajusa) derivation.
    In that sense, it seems that the Slavic speakers only met Albanophone speakers in North-East Macedonia and South-Eastern Serbia or what was once Dacia Mediterranea.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Aspar For This Useful Post:

     Pribislav (06-14-2021),  Riverman (06-14-2021)

  6. #444
    Registered Users
    Posts
    217
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    There is also the mountain Maleš in Eastern Macedonia. I find it interesting that these toponyms that could of been transferred to the Slavic speakers by Albanophone ones occur mainly in North-Eastern Macedonia and South-Eastern Serbia which by itself wasn't an Illyrian territory. West of that line the toponyms seem to not have been learned through an Albanophone agent. For example Skopje probably comes from the Greek Σκόπια/Skopja and not the Albanian Škupi, Skadar as well doesn't seem to come through an Albonophone agent, let alone other toponymy throughout Albania that has distinct Latin(Драч/Drach), Greek(Ѓирокастро/Gjirokastro) or entirely Slavic(Вајуса/Vajusa) derivation.
    In that sense, it seems that the Slavic speakers only met Albanophone speakers in North-East Macedonia and South-Eastern Serbia or what was once Dacia Mediterranea.
    I believe that toponyms of large imperial Roman cities aren't necessarily helpful in research because 1)prestige language use was widespread in them regardless of the local language of the surrounding rural area as a result of which b)it is very difficult to figure out via which language each toponym was transmitted. Shkupi and Skop(l)je are examples of parallel developments. Albanian does continue Roman-era Scupi and Slavic-speakers got Skopje from a later Byzantine Greek source. I say "later Byzantine Greek source" because all inscriptions from the city and the area in antiquity use the form Scupi. It's also not necessary that the toponym entered Slavic languages via direct contact with the local population as they used an /u/ form (attested in epigraphy as late as the 3rd century AD) but from contacts with the Byzantine Greek administration elsewhere in Thrace.

    About the toponym "Skadar", it is known that Slavic-speakers got it from native Dalmatian-speakers who called the town "Skudra". This form doesn't exclude Shkodër in Albanian as a parallel form and it also explains the close proximity which Albanian must have had to Dalmatian-speakers. The toponym Drac/Durrazo/Durrës has a very complex history which doesn't exclude any theory (aka Albanian Durrës may have evolved independently from Dyrrhachium while Slavic-speakers may have gotten Drac it via a Romance language) It's because of these issues which ultimately will never be fully known linguistically, but will definitely be clarified via aDNA research, that I think that we should focus more on non-settlement toponyms.

    About the northwesternmost presence of the Albanian language, Lim, Montenegro (from Proto-Albanian *lum: diese Ortsnamen auf slavischer Seite auf das onomastische Feld beschränkt sind , auf albanischer dagegen nicht selten vielfach semantische Beziehungen zum nichtonomastischen Wortschatz , zur appellativischen Lexik aufweisen . So ist der Flussname lim „ Flußschlamm , Anschwemmung , von einem Fluß mit sich geführte Ablagerungen “ , das zu lyej „ beschmiere “ gehört ). In southern Kosovo, Šar among Slavic-speakers could only be produced from Sc(i)ardus via Alb. Sharr. Katicic also adds Ohrid as one of those toponyms which presuppose development via Albanian. ("On the other hand Niš from Naïocós , Štip from " Aotißos , Šar from Scardus , and Ohrid from Lychnidus presuppose the sound development characteristic for Albanian")
    Last edited by Bruzmi; 06-15-2021 at 01:51 AM.

  7. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Bruzmi For This Useful Post:

     excine (06-14-2021),  Johane Derite (06-14-2021),  Kelmendasi (06-15-2021),  XXD (06-14-2021)

  8. #445
    Banned
    Posts
    762
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    EV13>Z5018>FGC33625
    mtDNA (M)
    U1a1a

    Albania Kosovo
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    This part especially demonstrates how non-factual any "Thracian" or "illyrian" substrates/ assimilation theories from South Slavs are, and that the vast majority of the native input is from later medieval assimilation of Albanians or Vlachs:

    "While Late Latin and proto-Albanian must have been in contact immediately from the introduction of Latin into the Balkans, as evidenced by toponyms, shared vocabulary, and deep grammatical convergences, Slavic arrived much later, and yet Balkan Slavic exhibits the full range of Balkanisms (Wahlström 2015:13).

    These grammatical features were not present in Slavic at the time of its first documentation in the Balkans, from the 10th century onwards.

    The earliest attestations of Old Church Slavonic preserve Late Common Slavic grammatical inheritances such as a synthetic case system, a where/whither distinction, separate marking for dative and genitive case.

    Only later did Balkan Slavic develop its grammatical commonalities with Albanian and Balkan Romance (Lindstedt 2000:235).

    A paleo-Balkan language could not have served as a substrate for the grammatical changes in Balkan Slavic."


    It is so evident, that all these people arguing about "ideological" motivations, are desperate to bypass any sort of Albanian ancestry, which is so obvious, and so they seek to create a narrative of directly Slavicized Thracians, Cumans, etc.

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Johane Derite For This Useful Post:

     Aspar (06-14-2021),  Bruzmi (06-14-2021),  excine (06-14-2021)

  10. #446
    Banned
    Posts
    762
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    EV13>Z5018>FGC33625
    mtDNA (M)
    U1a1a

    Albania Kosovo
    "Proto-Albanian and Late Latin were in a situation of extensive multilingualism very early in the period when Late Latin was developing into Balkan Romance.

    Albanian shows traces of deep, sustained Latin influence in both its grammar and lexicon, and innovations from Late Latin to modern Balkan Romance show convergence toward core grammatical properties of Albanian.

    The most persuasive proposal, following Hamp (1989), is that modern Albanian is the result of proto-Albanian speakers undergoing partial shift into Latin, while Balkan Romance is the outcome of a full shift of Albanian speakers into the Roman, Late Latin-speaking settlement community, resulting in a form of Balkan Latin that shared many grammatical and some lexical properties with Albanian."


  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Johane Derite For This Useful Post:

     excine (06-14-2021),  Riverman (06-14-2021)

  12. #447
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    270
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    What you don't understand is that a material culture or a group exists when a set of sites exhibit similar structural features which separate them from other sites to a degree that can justify their classification as part of the same group (not just the regional variant of a wider group). The "Brnjica culture" hypothesis was proposed at a time when no actual excavation projects existed in the proposed sites. As of 2020, basic classification has disproven the hypothesis and these sites can't be grouped as part of a "Brnjica material culture" simply because no archaeological taxonomy can be applied in a way which would result in such a classification. Archaeological taxonomy can be very complex and/or problematic in itself.
    Show me non-Albanian source claiming that. Because Albanian sources have conflict of interest. (in it in their interest of "autochthonism" to deny this culture which why you react so much when its mentioned).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    There is no "uniform" Glasinac-Mati because no material culture is uniform. Every settlement will be at the very least slightly different than another one inhabited by people who speak the same language and have the same ancestors. Furthermore, material cultures are not the same as linguistic cultures or kin groups. The same kin group can create different material cultures and people from different kin groups can be part of the same material culture. The idea that some users on internet fora have according to which material culture = linguistic culture = kin group culture = patrilineal relations is absurd.

    Cycladic culture is classified as different than the material culture (later known as Minoan) which developed in Crete, but it's pretty obvious nowadays that these were the same people and probably spoke related languages. The people of EBA Mokrin "belonged" to the Maros culture but men from three hgs (I2a, R1b, J2b) have been found in Mokrin so far.
    There are very strong indications towards high degree of genetic uniformity in many if not most cultures. Those examples are just exceptions. Maros culture was completed in origin, as evidenced by the fact that their anthropological makeup was highly heterogenous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    1)why the Latin substratum in Albanian evolved both in contact with Dalmatian and Eastern Balkan Romance
    Albanian contacts with Dalmatian postdate proto-Romanian-proto-Albanian cohabitation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    2)why Albanian has Doric Greek loanwords if it was spoken far away from places like Dyrrhachium
    Because Dorians came from Bulgaria?? Is this why you went to study Dorians?? Because you perceive the Dorian invasion as a threat to Albanian nativeness??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    3)why Messapic and Proto-Albanian have so many cognates
    Maybe because Messapians came from Shop area with Brnjica migrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    4)how Albanian became integral in the formation of the Balkan Sprachbund.
    Balkan Sprachbund doesn't include Serbian/Croatian. Eastern Romance speakers whose ancestry is far more Thracian than Illyrian in that group speak in favor of Albanian belonging there ultimately (to the East/Shop).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    These issues made Schramm's theory basically impossible and something which is mostly discussed on internet fora.
    Schramm also brought another point. Albanian "besa". People say "I swear by God, I swear by my mother etc". It's something "dear", so Besa is not a divinity, not a relative. It was a Thracian tribe, and therefore Albanians swear by their Bessian ancestry..


    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    About the northwesternmost presence of the Albanian language, Lim, Montenegro (from Proto-Albanian *lum: diese Ortsnamen auf slavischer Seite auf das onomastische Feld beschränkt sind , auf albanischer dagegen nicht selten vielfach semantische Beziehungen zum nichtonomastischen Wortschatz , zur appellativischen Lexik aufweisen . So ist der Flussname lim „ Flußschlamm , Anschwemmung , von einem Fluß mit sich geführte Ablagerungen “ , das zu lyej „ beschmiere “ gehört ).
    Per Geography of Ptolemy and this is accepted by Popović, Loma etc. modern river Lim was considered an upper stream of Drina, and lat. Drinus referred to modern Lim. So this is not an Antiquity term but a later Albanian adstrate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    In southern Kosovo, Šar among Slavic-speakers could only be produced from Sc(i)ardus via Alb. Sharr. Katicic also adds Ohrid as one of those toponyms which presuppose development via Albanian. ("On the other hand Niš from Naïocós , Štip from " Aotißos , Šar from Scardus , and Ohrid from Lychnidus presuppose the sound development characteristic for Albanian")
    There is no Sc(i)ardus, there is -Skard, by Albanian phonological rules -> Hard.

    Albanians could have adopted it from another IE language though.

    This is a topic about E-V13 in an archaeogenetic sense, not Albanian language. Johane is trying to derail it because he is incapable of contributing something on Y-DNA or archeology. I think you have topics dealing with Albanian language.
    Last edited by Huban; 06-15-2021 at 04:05 PM.

  13. #448
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    270
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This part especially demonstrates how non-factual any "Thracian" or "illyrian" substrates/ assimilation theories from South Slavs are, and that the vast majority of the native input is from later medieval assimilation of Albanians or Vlachs:
    Why would anyone in Medieval times want to assimilate anything from a non-prominent, relatively confined and small population that were the Albanians????

    Albanians began around Mat river. First mention of Albanians is 1000 years ago. The onomastics of the area packed with Albanian toponyms indicates Albanian began spreading around there. First Albanian state was still under the Byzantines. Later the Albanian feudal lords controlled the area. In no way was the ethnic Albanian element in any sort of position to make significant expansion nor were there any significant Albanians outside Arbanon to assimilate. Even those early katuns mentioned in Herzegovina, etc. were migrants from the Arbanon. Arvanites were migrants. Some katuns served monasteries on Kosovo. They as part of their lifestyle migrated to there, and that was a common arrangement for both Vlachs (which included some Slavic descended katuns) and the Arbanas to be in their service at the time.

    The majority of non-Slavic ancestry in peoples like Serbs, Macedonians etc is of Byzantine and Vlach extraction not Albanian. Also Byzantine, non-Vlach component might be even higher than the Vlach speaking component! And also to note, certainly plenty of paleo-Balkan ancestry in Albanians is also of Byzantine extraction, of various peoples who were Albanized by the the Principality of Arbanon, by the Albanian feudal lords.

    And of course by the Albanians in the Ottoman times. In the Ottoman times Albanians achieved highest expansion. This Albanian academic explains those times more. He says many Albanians have Circassian ancestry?? Are they testing??





    Last video I can understand, in analogy with some modern definitions and some past events concerning those who promulgated those definitions he means that Skenderbey has committed an act of terrorism against the Ottoman state??

  14. #449
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,113
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Albanian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-BY32817
    mtDNA (M)
    T1a1l
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-CTS1273*

    Albania Kosovo
    Huban, you criticise Johane Derite for derailing the thread but yet make follow up posts and replies that are completely off-topic, actively derailing the thread as well.

  15. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Kelmendasi For This Useful Post:

     digital_noise (06-15-2021),  excine (06-15-2021),  Johane Derite (06-15-2021),  Riverman (06-15-2021)

  16. #450
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    270
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Huban, you criticise Johane Derite for derailing the thread but yet make follow up posts and replies that are completely off-topic, actively derailing the thread as well.
    I'd be pleased if all the off-topic stuff was deleted. I posted the last thing only so I could post Olsi Jazexhi. I know Johane Derite follows him.

    My core point has already been posted. I did an analysis of some Y-DNA finds, their archeological context and possible implications, and these are bigger contributions than anyone has made on this topic by any objective measure.

Page 45 of 53 FirstFirst ... 354344454647 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Arabic Q-m25 cluster origin theory
    By Afshar in forum Q
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 06-17-2020, 07:45 PM
  2. Mycenaean South Caucausian Origin theory
    By Johane Derite in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-24-2019, 04:03 PM
  3. Out of Africa: a theory in crisis
    By firemonkey in forum Human Evolution
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-29-2018, 11:46 AM
  4. Ancestral origin and Haplogroup origin
    By Smilelover in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-17-2016, 10:26 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •