Something on dorian relations to illyrians -
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...AJ&redir_esc=y
p. 166: "In this region occupied by an ancient Illyrian population some part of the Illyrian heritage has survived in the Dorian dialect: the form Deipaturos may be a vocative of Illyrian origin."
Here is something even more interesting -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sfakians
If we could get dna tests done on these people it may help answer a few questions
Last edited by ShpataEMadhe; 09-03-2021 at 12:21 PM.
You're being just dishonest, because you know the Geto-Scythian and Psenichevo Thracian samples. And I have proven to you that the local population, but also those from the surrounding areas of Viminacium, was essentially Basarabi derived. So you have the Thracian connection, unless you claim that all those people with E-V13 the area were of foreign descent, which is ridiculous.Originally Posted by Bruzmi
But not necessarily in the same place, as the archaeological cultures, ancient DNA and historical accounts combined prove. The older people in the region didn't even have the same culture, society, ideology!All Paleo-Balkan groups are attested in IA ancient Greek texts, but they existed before that era.
First, the Iliad is no historical account, but the later authors might have exchanged old with new people. Other than that, around 1.300-1.100, most of the E-V13 main branching events took place and Channelled Ware expanded exactly in that time frame! Go figure! That's the time frame I'm proposing and the new paper has proven it, also mentioning the big shift in the LBA-EIA and later continuity with Belegis II-Gava -> Bosut-Basarabi.Ancient Greek texts refere to events which include Paleo-Balkan people before the EIA. The conflict which involved Troy happened around 1300-1200 BC and Thracians are mentioned in the Iliad, so Thracians were a well-established people in historical Thrace before the LBA. This is also attested archaeologically. The people who constituted the core Thracian-speaking population already lived in Thrace and were numerous.
So yes, the time frame fit, but just some generations before, there were no Thracians in the region.
I know that, but they weren't just changed like that. Burial rites were an important part of a given society, its religion and ideology.Cremation and inhumation practices are also not a good indication for population movements because more often than not they were cultural practices which were adopted or abandoned from time to time:
Knobbed Ware is a derivative of Channelled Ware, just so you know. Its exactly the kind of movement of people, including those moving to Anatolia, I'm writing about and I mentioned it before. The change in burial rite can easily be explained by the intrusion of Cimmerians, which produced the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon I wrote about so much. This is when Daco-Thracians moved to the West, playing an important part of what became Eastern Hallstatt and in their own core territories developing Basarabi-Bosut. The new Cimmerian steppe elements introduced inhumation. So it was also caused by a migrating people, which however were much less numerous and swiftly assimilated by the Daco-Thracians.LBA tumuli are the earliest burials of this type in the Rhodope Mountains. They are usually combined in groups, with from 2 to 20 contemporary burial mounds in a single
cemetery. It seems also noteworthy that there is a considerable degree of topographic continuity with later periods like the IA and Roman, resulting in the accumulation of
tumuli (sometimes up to 200 mounds) in large cemeteries. Furthermore, cremation, which is typical of the LBA, is almost entirely replaced by inhumation at the beginning
of the EIA. In Upper Thrace, on the other hand, the opposite trend is observable: LBA inhumation dies out with the end of the period and is replaced by cremation in ‘knobbed’ urns.
Pre-Channelled Ware Bulgaria had no E-V13, but Psenichevo, a derivative of Channelled Ware, for Bulgaria also known as Fluted Ware horizon, had it. And its no earlier than that we have any accounts of Thracians. The samples from Viminacium/Serbia, Moldova, Bulgaria, Pannonia, all fit. In all places was E-V13, after the Channelled Ware, not before. And before Hallstatt, it wasn't anywhere else but in the regions which introduced Channelled Ware and Naue II, respectively iron swords. That's all proven, its not necessary to speculate about something which can turn everything around and trying to twist reality.Thracians were already there. If E-V13 entry in Thrace is a transitional era development, then by defintion it's not of Thracian origin. On the other hand, we don't know the exact sources of E-V13 in modern Bulgaria, nor its pre-Roman distribution in that country. We'll have to see for results from more sites to see what represents a broader phenomenon and what an isolated.
A Phoenician or, more broadly, Semitic explanation for the presence of J2b-L283 in Europe is not convincing in the slightest in my opinion. J2b-L283 clusters do not show any significant diversity or basal diversity in the Levant or West Asia as a whole and L283 is not found in noticeably elevated frequencies in the former Phoenician colonies or areas of settlement. On top of that, the clusters present in West Asia tend to have numerous parallel clusters in Europe. On the other hand, J2b-L283 reaches highest diversity in Europe with a great chunk of that diversity centred in the western Balkans which already alludes to an Illyrian connection.
As for ancient DNA, this too does not support an expansion with the Phoenicians. So far J2b-L283 has only been discovered in ancient samples from Europe and the Caucasus/Transcaucasia and as I have mentioned previously the dating for sample I4331 is rather close to that of the TMRCA for Z38240 so an origin around the territory of modern-day Croatia is most certain. The sample itself has been connected to the Posušje culture which may have contributed to the formation of the Illyrians. The connection with the western Balkans and more specifically the Illyrian sphere is then supported by the presence of J2b-L283 among the Daunians, a Messapic-speaking group which most certainly arrived from the area of historical Illyria.
The J2b-M102 cluster that can be connected to the Phoenicians and even Proto-Semites is M205 which has been found alongside J1-Z2331 in numerous sites across the Levant and West Asia. Sample ERS1790732 from Middle Bronze Age Sidon, Lebanon, was in fact J2b-M205.
Bruzmi (09-03-2021), leorcooper19 (09-03-2021), Pribislav (09-04-2021), Riverman (09-03-2021)
It is still possible for proto pheonicians to have carried both j2b l283 and m205. Pheonicians have more history in europe than west asia, look at their trading routes after they moved out of the levant. How much j m205 has been found in ancient italy so far?
Phoenician_colonisation_en.png
phoen_map.jpg
The j2b found in ancient croatia is not enough to confirm that is what the illyrians carried as it predates illyrians by hundreds of years, we need more
Last edited by ShpataEMadhe; 09-03-2021 at 02:35 PM.
I suggest you stop embarrassing yourself. The J2b-L283 samples found in the Balkans (such as MOK15, I4331) predate any Phoenician colonies, which is evident by the maps you posted yourself.
I see user Kelmendasi already took you to school, but you choose to believe your own predetermined and unsubstantiated theories.
Kelmendasi (09-03-2021), olive picker (09-03-2021), Polska (09-03-2021), Pribislav (09-04-2021), Riverman (09-03-2021)
Looking at the modern structure of J2b-L283 in the Levant and West Asia, a correlation with the Phoenicians or Canaanites is extremely unconvincing for the reasons that I mentioned. If it was in fact a cluster present among the Canaanites and even Proto-Semites then we should see considerable diversity with high TMRCAs showing no recent connection to Europe. Numerous early Semitic sites have also been tested and not a single L283 sample has been discovered, M205 on the other hand has. While the Phoenicians did have multiple colonies in Mediterranean Europe, the regions which continuously had the most significant and profound Phoenician presence and influence were outside of Europe such as the North African coast and of course the Levant.
As for J2b-M205 in the ancient Italian Peninsula, samples R50 (135-244 CE) and R1283 (771-947 CE) from the paper on Rome were both under this group. The former was identified as J2b-M205>PF7321>Y134209 sharing a TMRCA of ~3,000 ybp with a modern sample from the North Governorate of Lebanon and the latter has been classified as J2b-M205>PF7321.
I do agree that we need more ancient DNA from the Balkans, however the fact that J2b-L283 has been discovered in a Bronze Age culture that contributed to the formation of the Illyrians, has been discovered among the Daunians who belonged to the Illyrian continuum and shows extremely high diversity in the western Balkans does create a very solid foundation for a theory connecting the group to the Illyrians.
Riverman (09-03-2021)
They predate illyrians too, please leave personal bias out of this until we get concrete evidence. How do you explain the j2b appearing in places like algeria, portugal and italy from 1700bc-1300bc? This looks clearly a pre illyrian line
Also, kelmendasi above has just pointed out that earliest j2b m205 in italy is from 200AD - italy should have much earlier phoenician lines that m205 is currently not supporting
Last edited by ShpataEMadhe; 09-03-2021 at 03:51 PM.
What bias are you talking about?
There is no ancient J2b-L283 from any of those places in those time periods. So, please stop spreading disinformation and derailing this thread!
Furthermore, the Phoenicians would have to have J2b-L283 in order to spread it. There is zero ancient J2b-L283 from the Levant/Middle East.
Last edited by Trojet; 09-03-2021 at 03:55 PM.
Kelmendasi (09-03-2021)
What would an l283 be doing all the way in portugal and algeria if was directly related to illyrians? Go look at yfull for tmrca
How do we explain the lack of l283 in greece where illyrians had influence?
I think you have to learn to differentiate between TMRCA and actual movements of people. The TMRCA just tells you, if its accurate to begin with, when a branching event took place, when a lineage split. It doesn't tell you where, it doesn't tell you when the people actually left the common tribe. Like two lineages could still be neighbours in the same village for 1.000 years before one decides to be a colonist in North Africa and the other goes to Italy. Now, in modern times, you have one in Italy and the other North Africa, but before that, they were for 1.000 years after the split still in the same home village in Croatia. Just as an example, food for thought.
Also, we do know how some J-L283 might have moved to the Near and North Africa early on, namely with the Sea People. Just recently I saw Daco-Thracian and Illyrian-Pannonian people with hats, including horned hats, on depictions, and they are practically of the same kind as some Sea People were depicted in Medinet Habu.
There can be no doubt that LBA migrants with Naue II swords participated in the movements to the East Mediterranean. So even if you find a lineage of J-L283 in the Near East and North Africa, it might be from later movements from North. But let's assume, for a moment, that J2-L283 had ancestors which were related to Afro-Asiatic Near Easterners, which is possible. Let's talk about the time frame. The time in which this could have been the case predates everything we are talking about here. Because in the Bronze Age, presumably even in the Late Neolithic period, they were in South Eastern and possibly even Eastern Central Europe. This means for the debate about Illyrians, its completely irrelevant whether they came 2.000 or 3.000 years earlier with some kind of Afro-Asiatic Copper Age people, which is not the case anyway, but for the sake of an argument, because these are much later events.
Kelmendasi (09-03-2021), Trojet (09-03-2021)
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