A theory about the origin of E-V13

[Kelmendasi]

How about E-V13 Y-chromosomes among Iranians, Tajiks, and Turkmens? Is it already clear that they are descended from European forefathers?

What subclade do they fall under? I do know of some Kurds which have been classified as E-CTS1273* for now, so their V13 may have arrived earlier with IE speakers. There is also a CTS1273* (BY3880-) clade found in Ossetians which also seems to date back to the Bronze Age. Still, CTS1273 clearly originated in Europe and was definitely a part of the early IE expansions and chances are that these Iranians, Tajiks and Turkmens are CTS1273+.

Anyways, I was referring to the peoples from the Levant and Turkey. V13 samples from the Levant and Turkey belong to clades under S7461, Z5018, Z5017 etc which definitely came from a more recent European source.

[rafc]

Eupedia isn't 100% certain that the Catalonian sample was E-V13, it only mentions it as possible. As for the idea that E-V13 came to Europe with Copper Age, thing is, Neolithic Europeans had only very low frequencies of E-M78, literally only those 3 samples, that you mention, had it, out of more than 70 Neolithic European samples. It sounds somewhat unlikely that E-V13 would be most present in the Balkans that are right next to Anatolia, if it was a Neolithic European lineage. Neolithic Anatolians, that composed most of the Neolithic Europeans' DNA, were mostly G2a. E-M78 was far more associated with Levantines. Copper Age Anatolians were already mixed with Levantines and recent genetic studies suggest that they also migrated to Southeastern Europe. Thus, it sounds plausible for E-V13 to have come to Europe with them. An online map shows some E-V13 in Southern Anatolia, exactly where we would expect Levantine admixed Anatolians. What do you think, now?

The Catalonian sample is certainly positive for V13, but the issue with the result is that they only tested single SNPs. Since the date of the skeleton seems far too early for V13 this sample likely represents a sidebranch of V13, which already had the V13 mutation but not yet all equivalent mutations of today's V13s.

[Johane Derite]

Sesklo and Dimini might be important for origin of EV13, and how it relates to Proto-IE.

While a bit outdated, there is possibly relevant info that seems to have been forgotten in this paper on greek ydna (link at bottom).

We find the highest EV13 (35%, 20/57 samples), and also the highest J2b-m241 in Sesklo/Dimini. (page 3)

This site shows a warlike people that invades violently and begins fortifications around 5000BC.

The Dimini culture overtakes the Sesklo one, and the culture they bring has Danubian parallels.

It is also where Kretschmer argued the "Pelasgian" (Indo European as he argued) language came from:

 

LINK: https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.co...471-2148-11-69

[Pillar_of_fire]

Lately I consider that E-V13 came to the Balkans from the North, picked up in somewhere in the Caucasus, as a travel partner of R1a and / or R1b. E-V13 is thinly split all across all Europe now. Have a look at YFULL tree.

[Kelmendasi]

Lately I consider that E-V13 came to the Balkans from the North, picked up in somewhere in the Caucasus, as a travel partner of R1a and / or R1b. E-V13 is thinly split all across all Europe now. Have a look at YFULL tree.

The origin of E-V13 itself doesn't seem to have been north of the Balkans, if anything it was in the Balkans or some place nearby. I also doubt that it was picked up in the Caucasus, seems far more likely that it was picked up in the western steppe and expanded from there. I should clarify though that it seems CTS1273 is best associated with the expansion of IE speaking groups during the Bronze Age based on TMRCA, despite a probable origin in the Balkans.

[Aspar]

The origin of E-V13 itself doesn't seem to have been north of the Balkans, if anything it was in the Balkans or some place nearby. I also doubt that it was picked up in the Caucasus, seems far more likely that it was picked up in the western steppe and expanded from there. I should clarify though that it seems CTS1273 is best associated with the expansion of IE speaking groups during the Bronze Age based on TMRCA, despite a probable origin in the Balkans.

There is more basal diversity of E-V13 and E-L618 north of the Balkans.
And even if so as you think, how would you explain the insignificant presence of E-V13 in the Romans?
The history of the Romans is interconnected with that of the Balkans, especially with the classic Greeks and Illyrians, much earlier than the late antiquity when the first E-V13 among the Romans shows up.

[Kelmendasi]

There is more basal diversity of E-V13 and E-L618 north of the Balkans.
And even if so as you think, how would you explain the insignificant presence of E-V13 in the Romans?
The history of the Romans is interconnected with that of the Balkans, especially with the classic Greeks and Illyrians, much earlier than the late antiquity when the first E-V13 among the Romans shows up.

There isn't more basal diversity of V13 or L618 north of the Balkans. There are only 2 E-L618 (V13-) samples located north of the Balkans that I am aware of, one is a Dane who is L618>FGC11429 whilst the other is from Latvia (not sure if he is an ethnic Latvian) and belongs to L618>BY6578 which is shared with a Lebanese guy. The other L618 (V13-) samples are found in Saudi Arabia (L618>BY125469), Algeria (L618>BY125469) and Albania (L618>FT148887). As for V13, there are various basal clades under CTS1273 and Y39077 that are found in the Balkans. It is known that V13 itself is most diverse in the Balkans, especially around places such as Bulgaria iirc.

My post had nothing to do with the Romans, I don't see how your question is relevant to it. Anyways, just because the Romans seemingly had an insignificant amount of V13 doesn't mean that the ancient population of the Balkans also will, though I do think that V13 may not have been the dominant haplogroup among them. The vast majority of the clades found in the modern Balkans were there since the Late Bronze Age based on current data, though many went through bottlenecks during the Medieval.

My argument is that V13 itself probably originated in the Balkans or some place nearby, but CTS1273 and some other smaller clades were absorbed by IE speakers somewhere around the Western steppe and expanded during the Bronze Age across Europe, nothing to do with Romans. Though I do think that the Balkan legions did spread some V13 in Western Europe since there are clades present in Western Europe which are clearly of Balkan input.

[Bane]

There isn't more basal diversity of V13 or L618 north of the Balkans. There are only 2 E-L618 (V13-) samples located north of the Balkans that I am aware of, one is a Dane who is L618>FGC11429 whilst the other is from Latvia (not sure if he is an ethnic Latvian) and belongs to L618>BY6578 which is shared with a Lebanese guy.

Actually, there are more than 2 as you can see here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public.../E;name=E-L618
Sweden, France, England are labeled as home countries of these E-L618 (V13-) men.

[Kelmendasi]

Actually, there are more than 2 as you can see here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public.../E;name=E-L618
Sweden, France, England are labeled as home countries of these E-L618 (V13-) men.

I see. There is a L618 (V13-) Frenchman who is L618>BY6630 which is shared by an Italian and a Latvian (2 actually but both are from the same family, they also could be Jewish based on the surname), the sample from England seems to be BY28614+. I also forgot to mention the L618 (V13-) Sardinian sample from Cagiliari and a sample from Syria which is potentially L618*.

[Aspar]

There isn't more basal diversity of V13 or L618 north of the Balkans. There are only 2 E-L618 (V13-) samples located north of the Balkans that I am aware of, one is a Dane who is L618>FGC11429 whilst the other is from Latvia (not sure if he is an ethnic Latvian) and belongs to L618>BY6578 which is shared with a Lebanese guy. The other L618 (V13-) samples are found in Saudi Arabia (L618>BY125469), Algeria (L618>BY125469) and Albania (L618>FT148887). As for V13, there are various basal clades under CTS1273 and Y39077 that are found in the Balkans. It is known that V13 itself is most diverse in the Balkans, especially around places such as Bulgaria iirc.

My post had nothing to do with the Romans, I don't see how your question is relevant to it. Anyways, just because the Romans seemingly had an insignificant amount of V13 doesn't mean that the ancient population of the Balkans also will, though I do think that V13 may not have been the dominant haplogroup among them. The vast majority of the clades found in the modern Balkans were there since the Late Bronze Age based on current data, though many went through bottlenecks during the Medieval.

My argument is that V13 itself probably originated in the Balkans or some place nearby, but CTS1273 and some other smaller clades were absorbed by IE speakers somewhere around the Western steppe and expanded during the Bronze Age across Europe, nothing to do with Romans. Though I do think that the Balkan legions did spread some V13 in Western Europe since there are clades present in Western Europe which are clearly of Balkan input.

If you check the Block Tree you can see exactly what I am talking about.
There is indeed more basal E-V13 diversity in countries like Germany and England than there is in the Balkans. Even Poland has more basal E-V13's than Greece does.
The thing is most E-V13's in the Balkans fall down in two of the most dominant basal clades of E-V13 like CTS5856, PH1246.
There is not many CTS5856- or PH1246- like there is in Northern and Western Europe.

I know that your post has nothing to do with the Romans, but if the E-V13 originated in the Balkans, it should had more basal clades of E-V13 in the Balkans and not mainly CTS5856 and PH1246.
And as such, it should have been visible in the Roman study, where the opposite was truth.
That's why I've mentioned the Greeks and the Illyrians because they had huge influence on the other side of the Adriatic.

You say, "most clades of E-V13 were in the Balkans since the BA based on the current data".
We can't really be sure about that.
Predicting ancient data based on modern distribution is wrong on many levels.
I know this is a touchy subject for many peoples in the Balkans but I am not really sure many modern clades were where they are now since most modern nations and people are product of the late Antiquity and early Medieval migrations.

In fact, I was saying ever since, even on other forums that E-V13 has very little to do with the Ancient Greeks when everyone else were quite euphoric about the distribution of E-V13 being ancient Greek product.
And with the available ancient Greeks we have as well as the Roman study, that theory can now be put to sleep.

I will now go even further and say that whatever clades the ancient people inhabiting the Balkans(when I say Balkans I mean only south of Danube), probably ended up in the gene pool of the modern Greeks, Turks and Southern Italians because of the places where the Roman people escaped during the great migrations.

Just my two cents,