A theory about the origin of E-V13

[Kelmendasi]

If you check the Block Tree you can see exactly what I am talking about.
There is indeed more basal E-V13 diversity in countries like Germany and England than there is in the Balkans. Even Poland has more basal E-V13's than Greece does.
The thing is most E-V13's in the Balkans fall down in two of the most dominant basal clades of E-V13 like CTS5856, PH1246.
There is not many CTS5856- or PH1246- like there is in Northern and Western Europe.

I know that your post has nothing to do with the Romans, but if the E-V13 originated in the Balkans, it should had more basal clades of E-V13 in the Balkans and not mainly CTS5856 and PH1246.
And as such, it should have been visible in the Roman study, where the opposite was truth.
That's why I've mentioned the Greeks and the Illyrians because they had huge influence on the other side of the Adriatic.

You say, "most clades of E-V13 were in the Balkans since the BA based on the current data".
We can't really be sure about that.
Predicting ancient data based on modern distribution is wrong on many levels.
I know this is a touchy subject for many peoples in the Balkans but I am not really sure many modern clades were where they are now since most modern nations and people are product of the late Antiquity and early Medieval migrations.

In fact, I was saying ever since, even on other forums that E-V13 has very little to do with the Ancient Greeks when everyone else were quite euphoric about the distribution of E-V13 being ancient Greek product.
And with the available ancient Greeks we have as well as the Roman study, that theory can now be put to sleep.

I will now go even further and say that whatever clades the ancient people inhabiting the Balkans(when I say Balkans I mean only south of Danube), probably ended up in the gene pool of the modern Greeks, Turks and Southern Italians because of the places where the Roman people escaped during the great migrations.

Just my two cents,

You're making it seem as if a large number of the V13 in Western Europe is CTS1273- or Y39077-, the vast majority of the clades there are still CTS1273+. Y39077 is fairly important when looking at the origin of V13, and this clade is best represented in the Balkans.The CTS1273- and Y39077- clade found in Western Europe is BY6550 which is very insignificant in terms of frequency and for all we know expanded with IE speaking groups west. The Yfull tree, as well as other Y trees, don't give a wholly accurate representation of what it's really like. People from Western Europe are highly represented whilst peoples from the Balkans aren't. Over representation is also a problem with other haplogroups, just look at Arabs and J1, Yfull and other trees makes it seem as if it's most diverse around Saudi Arabia and the Gulf nations but we know for a fact that it isn't.

There is a high basal diversity of V13 in the Balkans, just look at the Y39077 clades for example. aDNA is also in support of an origin around the Balkans, especially within the Cardium Pottery Culture. The L618* sample from Dalmatia and the E-V13 sample from Catalonia both belonged to this culture. L618 has also been found in a sample from Hungary, belonging to the Lengyel Culture, which is fairly close to the Balkans. I don't see how for V13 to have originated in the Balkans, the Romans must have had it in a higher frequency. The Romans and the ancient population of the Balkans were separate peoples, sure they had close contacts but that doesn't always mean much. Also, I did state that E-V13 may not have been the dominant haplogroup in the Balkans at the time.

When I stated that many of the V13 clades in the Balkans have been present in the region since the Bronze Age, I was mainly referring to the clades found among Albanians. Based on TMRCA, basal clades and diversity it is fairly safe to say so. The only clade which can be safely associated with Slavs that I am aware of is S3003, and this is basically non-existent in any Balkan population. Sure some clades may have entered during Antiquity, but I doubt that many arrived during the Medieval.

As far as I know, most of the V13 clades present in modern day Greeks seem to have arrived from the north during the Iron Age based on TMRCA and where the basal clades are found. A large number also arrived with Arvanite and Vlach migrants during the Medieval.

Anyways, I agree that we need aDNA to clear this up. I am open to an origin from the north, but I'm a little skeptical as of now.

[Aspar]

You're making it seem as if a large number of the V13 in Western Europe is CTS1273- or Y39077-, the vast majority of the clades there are still CTS1273+. Y39077 is fairly important when looking at the origin of V13, and this clade is best represented in the Balkans.The CTS1273- and Y39077- clade found in Western Europe is BY6550 which is very insignificant in terms of frequency and for all we know expanded with IE speaking groups west. The Yfull tree, as well as other Y trees, don't give a wholly accurate representation of what it's really like. People from Western Europe are highly represented whilst peoples from the Balkans aren't. Over representation is also a problem with other haplogroups, just look at Arabs and J1, Yfull and other trees makes it seem as if it's most diverse around Saudi Arabia and the Gulf nations but we know for a fact that it isn't.

There is a high basal diversity of V13 in the Balkans, just look at the Y39077 clades for example. aDNA is also in support of an origin around the Balkans, especially within the Cardium Pottery Culture. The L618* sample from Dalmatia and the E-V13 sample from Catalonia both belonged to this culture. L618 has also been found in a sample from Hungary, belonging to the Lengyel Culture, which is fairly close to the Balkans. I don't see how for V13 to have originated in the Balkans, the Romans must have had it in a higher frequency. The Romans and the ancient population of the Balkans were separate peoples, sure they had close contacts but that doesn't always mean much. Also, I did state that E-V13 may not have been the dominant haplogroup in the Balkans at the time.

When I stated that many of the V13 clades in the Balkans have been present in the region since the Bronze Age, I was mainly referring to the clades found among Albanians. Based on TMRCA, basal clades and diversity it is fairly safe to say so. The only clade which can be safely associated with Slavs that I am aware of is S3003, and this is basically non-existent in any Balkan population. Sure some clades may have entered during Antiquity, but I doubt that many arrived during the Medieval.

As far as I know, most of the V13 clades present in modern day Greeks seem to have arrived from the north during the Iron Age based on TMRCA and where the basal clades are found. A large number also arrived with Arvanite and Vlach migrants during the Medieval.

Anyways, I agree that we need aDNA to clear this up. I am open to an origin from the north, but I'm a little skeptical as of now.

It's not me who is making it seem like that, it's the Block Tree and the tree only futures BigY participants, not those with an SNP pack.
You can see it by yourself if you have a Big Y done. So I am not talking about YFULL tree which has much less participants than Block Tree has.
The vast majority of E-V13 in the Balkans fall down in one or two major subclades of E-V13 while in Western Europe and Northern Europe there are substantial amount of E-V13 negative on those two major subclades.

I can't find this E-Y39077 clade your talking about neither on the Block Tree nor YFULL.
Most of the Cardium Pottery Culture was located in Italy and Western Europe, while a small part also in the Balkans, along the Adriatic coast.
So, E-V13 could have been born anywhere around there and as you yourself said, the oldest E-V13 up to date is found in Northeastern Spain, also part of Cardium Pottery Culture.

As I said, the current distribution of subclades of E-V13 among the modern people is not an indication that those subclades of E-V13 were in those places since the BA especially when you take into account the migrations that have taken place in late antiquity and early medievals.
S3003 is again CTS5856+ as are many modern caldes in the Balkans. Western and Northern Europe do have many people who are CTS5856-.

[Kelmendasi]

It's not me who is making it seem like that, it's the Block Tree and the tree only futures BigY participants, not those with an SNP pack.
You can see it by yourself if you have a Big Y done. So I am not talking about YFULL tree which has much less participants than Block Tree has.
The vast majority of E-V13 in the Balkans fall down in one or two major subclades of E-V13 while in Western Europe and Northern Europe there are substantial amount of E-V13 negative on those two major subclades.

I can't find this E-Y39077 clade your talking about neither on the Block Tree nor YFULL.
Most of the Cardium Pottery Culture was located in Italy and Western Europe, while a small part also in the Balkans, along the Adriatic coast.
So, E-V13 could have been born anywhere around there and as you yourself said, the oldest E-V13 up to date is found in Northeastern Spain, also part of Cardium Pottery Culture.

As I said, the current distribution of subclades of E-V13 among the modern people is not an indication that those subclades of E-V13 were in those places since the BA especially when you take into account the migrations that have taken place in late antiquity and early medievals.
S3003 is again CTS5856+ as are many modern caldes in the Balkans. Western and Northern Europe do have many people who are CTS5856-.

Again, there is over representation of Western Europeans on these trees when it comes to E-V13. We will have to see what clade they actually fall under, for all we know they could all be BY6550+ which would actually mean that there is little diversity in the non CTS1273 (CTS5856) and Y30977 (PH1246) clades. I also see the Greek and Italian samples, would like to see what they end up as.

I was meant to type Y30977 and not Y39077, my bad. As for the Cardium Pottery Culture, this culture actually started off in the east and not the west. The oldest sites have been found in Corfu and the Epirus reigon of Greece, followed by some sites in Albania and the Dalmatian coast of Croatia. It would eventually expand into Italy and then the Iberian peninsula. So it is very likely that this V13 sample had paternal roots in the east, which is supported by the presence of L618 in Dalmatia and Hungary.

It's not only based on distribution, but also TMRCA and where basal clades are found. Anyways, this will just be a back and forth, so it's best to just wait for more aDNA.

[Keqa]

Many Bronze Age sites in northern, eastern and western Europe have already been sampled and not even one V13 has shown up. You’re beating a dead horse there, bud.

[Aspar]

How come???

If you follow archeogenetic news you would know about the oldest E-V13 up to date is found in Northeastern Spain!
Then, we have the four thousand years old sample from Moldova, which is CTS5856+!

So there are already two samples E-V13+ which are found outside the Balkans and not even one in the Balkans, even though we already have a decent amount of old samples from Greece, Bulgaria and Croatia!

[Keqa]

How come???

If you follow archeogenetic news you would know about the oldest E-V13 up to date is found in Northeastern Spain!
Then, we have the four thousand years old sample from Moldova, which is CTS5856+!

So there are already two samples E-V13+ which are found outside the Balkans and not even one in the Balkans, even though we already have a decent amount of old samples from Greece, Bulgaria and Croatia!

The Neolithic sample from Spain is assumed to be V13+ based on STRs. I don’t think he was SNP verified as such.


What 4000 years old sample are you talking about?

[Aspar]

The Neolithic sample from Spain is assumed to be V13+ based on STRs. I don’t think he was SNP verified as such.


What 4000 years old sample are you talking about?

scy197* Glinoe Scythian 2885 - 2632 BCE

This sample was first predicted as R1b but it turned out mistake and positive for CTS5856. Furthermore, the dating if right, is EBA and as such it means that this sample isn't a Scythian!

[Aspar]

Again, there is over representation of Western Europeans on these trees when it comes to E-V13. We will have to see what clade they actually fall under, for all we know they could all be BY6550+ which would actually mean that there is little diversity in the non CTS1273 (CTS5856) and Y30977 (PH1246) clades. I also see the Greek and Italian samples, would like to see what they end up as.

I was meant to type Y30977 and not Y39077, my bad. As for the Cardium Pottery Culture, this culture actually started off in the east and not the west. The oldest sites have been found in Corfu and the Epirus reigon of Greece, followed by some sites in Albania and the Dalmatian coast of Croatia. It would eventually expand into Italy and then the Iberian peninsula. So it is very likely that this V13 sample had paternal roots in the east, which is supported by the presence of L618 in Dalmatia and Hungary.

It's not only based on distribution, but also TMRCA and where basal clades are found. Anyways, this will just be a back and forth, so it's best to just wait for more aDNA.

BY6550+ is not a subclade of E-V13, it's a parallel branch which has nothing to do with E-V13 apart from having a same ancestor.

These guys from Western Europe are E-V13+

[Kelmendasi]

How come???

If you follow archeogenetic news you would know about the oldest E-V13 up to date is found in Northeastern Spain!
Then, we have the four thousand years old sample from Moldova, which is CTS5856+!

So there are already two samples E-V13+ which are found outside the Balkans and not even one in the Balkans, even though we already have a decent amount of old samples from Greece, Bulgaria and Croatia!

As I stated before, the Spanish sample was from a culture which had origins in the east and expanded from the Balkans into the Italian and Iberian peninsulas. So, it is very likely that he was of Balkan origin.

There is actually the Iron Age Thracian sample from Svilengrad, Bulgaria. The sample was confirmed for Z1919 though I have seen it being classified as V13+ http://www.open-genomes.org/analysis...6.01_tree.html. This makes sense given the time period, I highly doubt the sample was just Z1919* (L618- and V13-). But I may be wrong. We don't have a decent amount of Bronze Age or Iron Age Balkan samples, it is in this period that we should expect E-V13 to pop up. I don't think it's fair to compare the Balkans and Western/Eastern Europe when it comes to aDNA.

[Kelmendasi]

BY6550+ is not a subclade of E-V13, it's a parallel branch which has nothing to do with E-V13 apart from having a same ancestor.

These guys from Western Europe are E-V13+

Don't know where you got that information from, https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY6550/