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Thread: A theory about the origin of E-V13

  1. #3121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    We have samples from the Tisza/Transztisza and we'll get more in the Carpathian Basin study. E-V13 really has no demographic significance in these areas in the BA/IA and you will see that when the relevant studies get published.
    They cremated, which means every sample is worth 10 or more, if coming from close by and might represent individuals which being buried irregularly or assimilated by people which used inhumation. Obviously most of the samples will be from Cimmerians, Scythians and other foreigners, since the locals cremated. But there should be some in between, and they are, which is enough.

    Because you won't find much more in the Bronze Age, much to the South of the Tisza zone. You forget that even a small number of samples from close to the cremating core groups is decisive. Especially if you don't get no multiple finds from relevant clades elsewhere, which proves they weren't anywhere else.

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    We can explain fairly adequately on how haplogroup R expanded from Siberia, and haplogroup J somewhere close to Iran, but how did E come to Eurasia? Upstream clades such as E-M78 are clearly North African and Levantine in their distribution.

    To be honest, based on the phylogeny of haplogroup E as a whole, I would not be surprised if really basal branches of E-V13 will be found in Anatolia, and then Thrace/Dacia. Geographically this makes most sense, does it not? I know that basal E-V13 lineages are not found today in Anatolia and the Levant, but this does not mean they were not there in the very distant past.

    I cannot explain in any other way the presence of haplogroup E in Europe. A West-to-East scenario might be possible as well, but this is not supported by any data, ancient or modern, apart from an old Cardium pottery culture sample, whose calls were questionable, if I am not mistaken?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    They cremated, which means every sample is worth 10 or more, if coming from close by and might represent individuals which being buried irregularly or assimilated by people which used inhumation. Obviously most of the samples will be from Cimmerians, Scythians and other foreigners, since the locals cremated.
    This is a cyclical and self-referential argument which doesn't hold up scientifically. E-V13 is not a "special" haplogroup whose carriers for some reason just cremated, but nobody else in a region did. If we have a large number of samples in a region and they belong to clades of R1b and I2, then obviously the "locals" didn't cremate and if E-V13 isn't found in that region, then it just wasn't there.

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  6. #3124
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    We can explain fairly adequately on how haplogroup R expanded from Siberia, and haplogroup J somewhere close to Iran, but how did E come to Eurasia? Upstream clades such as E-M78 are clearly North African and Levantine in their distribution.

    To be honest, based on the phylogeny of haplogroup E as a whole, I would not be surprised if really basal branches of E-V13 will be found in Anatolia, and then Thrace/Dacia. Geographically this makes most sense, does it not? I know that basal E-V13 lineages are not found today in Anatolia and the Levant, but this does not mean they were not there in the very distant past.

    I cannot explain in any other way the presence of haplogroup E in Europe. A West-to-East scenario might be possible as well, but this is not supported by any data, ancient or modern, apart from an old Cardium pottery culture sample, whose calls were questionable, if I am not mistaken?
    The oldest E-L618 in Europe are from coastal Croatia (7680 ybp) and Spain (7000 ybp). From Croatia, E-L618 spread with Sopot-Lengyel at the very least to Hungary. This is where the information flow stops. To coastal Croatia it most probably got via the maritime route.

    In Neolithic Thrace and Romania, there is no E-L618 so far, but we'll get many more samples in a few days so we can test this hypothesis too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    The oldest E-L618 in Europe are from coastal Croatia (7680 ybp) and Spain (7000 ybp). From Croatia, E-L618 spread with Sopot-Lengyel at the very least to Hungary. This is where the information flow stops. To coastal Croatia it most probably got via the maritime route.

    In Neolithic Thrace and Romania, there is no E-L618 so far, but we'll get many more samples in a few days so we can test this hypothesis too.
    What is the most recent EV13 sample until now?

  9. #3126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    This is a cyclical and self-referential argument which doesn't hold up scientifically. E-V13 is not a "special" haplogroup whose carriers for some reason just cremated, but nobody else in a region did. If we have a large number of samples in a region and they belong to clades of R1b and I2, then obviously the "locals" didn't cremate and if E-V13 isn't found in that region, then it just wasn't there.
    The argument really only rests on these premise.
    1) That an archaeological culture can be associated with a group of people who carry predominantly 1 y-lineage.
    Not too absurd given BellBeakers and R-P312, Yamnaya and R-Z2103, Andronovo and R-Z93.
    2) That people assimilating into a new culture may retain their own customs, at least for some time (to explain other y-hg popping up in atypical burials).
    3) That the majority in X archaeological culture(s) didn't adopt the burial customs of minority group(s) in any significant scale (to explain lack of E-V13 showing up in atypical burials).

    None of those seem farfetched. Did it happen, who knows, maybe we'll find out. Could it have happened given the above required conditions? Absolutely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    We can explain fairly adequately on how haplogroup R expanded from Siberia, and haplogroup J somewhere close to Iran, but how did E come to Eurasia? Upstream clades such as E-M78 are clearly North African and Levantine in their distribution.

    To be honest, based on the phylogeny of haplogroup E as a whole, I would not be surprised if really basal branches of E-V13 will be found in Anatolia, and then Thrace/Dacia. Geographically this makes most sense, does it not? I know that basal E-V13 lineages are not found today in Anatolia and the Levant, but this does not mean they were not there in the very distant past.

    I cannot explain in any other way the presence of haplogroup E in Europe. A West-to-East scenario might be possible as well, but this is not supported by any data, ancient or modern, apart from an old Cardium pottery culture sample, whose calls were questionable, if I am not mistaken?
    We have different related samples of E-L618 in Impresso-Cardial and the groups influenced by it, especially Lengyel and Michelsberg in Central Europe. The most likely path is therefore from the Levante, into Impresso-Cardial, spread along the Danube, survival in the Upper Tisza-Eastern Carpathian zone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    This is a cyclical and self-referential argument which doesn't hold up scientifically. E-V13 is not a "special" haplogroup whose carriers for some reason just cremated, but nobody else in a region did.
    Many people in the region did cremate, but the Upper Tisza region was one of the core traditional regions for the custom and in and around that area the locals cremated from the EBA to the Christian era. There are few places in which there were so many cultural formations which continuously did cremate. And the rite of cremation rather spread from there multiple times - presumably with associated migration events.

    If we have a large number of samples in a region and they belong to clades of R1b and I2, then obviously the "locals" didn't cremate and if E-V13 isn't found in that region, then it just wasn't there.
    We have zero samples of relevance, all from different cultural groups. The only relevant male samples we got are those from Psenichevo, which descend from the Danubian Fluted Ware groups, and they brought up E-V13.

    From the paper with the Viminacium samples:

    A local origin is supported by a high frequency of Y-chromosome lineage E-V13, which has been hypothesized to have experienced a Bronze-to-Iron
    Age expansion in the Balkans
    and is found in its highest frequencies in the present-day Balkans17. We interpret this cluster as the descendants of local Balkan Iron Age populations living at
    Viminacium, where they represented an abundant ancestry group during the Early Imperial and later periods (~47% of sampled individuals from the 1-550 CE). Excavations of Iron Age
    Balkans prior to the Roman rule showed the dead where predominantly cremated
    18, but this changed in Viminacium where inhumation became common suggesting a high degree of
    Romanization of the local society
    . Viminacium necropoli followed a bi-ritual mortuary rite where some dead were buried, and some were cremated. During the 1 st century until the first
    half of the 3 rd century cremations where more common, however this changed from the 3rd onwards when inhumations prevailed 19. We caution that if there was a systematic ancestry
    difference between the population that buried and the one that burnt its dead, we would of course be obtaining a biased representation of ancestry through ancient DNA analysis.
    To main takeaways:
    - E-V13 expanded in the Balkans between the Bronze to Iron Age. But we already know it wasn't really there in the Bronze Age.
    - Funerary customs differ and can mask regional variation. The sample was a lucky one being because they were caught in transition. Surely, if those which cremated could have been tested, there would have been even more E-V13 in and around Viminacium. Romanisation and Christian lifted the curtain, that's all.
    Last edited by Riverman; 08-22-2022 at 05:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    The argument really only rests on these premise.
    1) That an archaeological culture can be associated with a group of people who carry predominantly 1 y-lineage.
    Not too absurd given BellBeakers and R-P312, Yamnaya and R-Z2103, Andronovo and R-Z93.
    2) That people assimilating into a new culture may retain their own customs, at least for some time (to explain other y-hg popping up in atypical burials).
    3) That the majority in X archaeological culture(s) didn't adopt the burial customs of minority group(s) in any significant scale (to explain lack of E-V13 showing up in atypical burials).

    None of those seem farfetched. Did it happen, who knows, maybe we'll find out. Could it have happened given the above required conditions? Absolutely.
    You cant compare yamnaya people (copper age and early bronze age) to late bronze age/iron age tribes. The late bronze age and iron age tribes will carry a much bigger diversity of y dna lines as archeology has shown us. Over time people have moved around in europe and developed cultures, tribes, languages with the people they assimilated

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karagjoz View Post
    You cant compare yamnaya people (copper age and early bronze age) to late bronze age/iron age tribes. The late bronze age and iron age tribes will carry a much bigger diversity of y dna lines as archeology has shown us. Over time people have moved around in europe and developed cultures, tribes, languages with the people they assimilated
    This is not always true, just look at the dominance of I-M253 and R-U106 in early Germanics! Even to this day, these are the main Germanic markers. Same goes for the specific Slavic clades of R1a and I2. It is no necessary that they were 100 % E-V13 anyway, but dominated by it, just like some Germanic tribes being dominated by I-M253 or the Italics, the Slavs, the Balts, the Finns, Avars etc., etc.... the list could go on an on. E-V13 seems to have been the dominant haplogroup of the Proto-Thracians (Daco-Thracians), that's all.
    As soon as they settled down or even worse got conquered themselves, they surely mixed, which is exactly what we will see: Local lineages, Cimmerians, Scythians will pop up probably even more often, because they were less likely to cremate. But what does that tell you for a group in which more than 90 % got cremated?
    Only if they completely transitioned to inhumation, which they rarely did without admixture, subjugation, assimilation, we can say something more definite. This is probably the case for the local Mezocsat/Thraco-Cimmerian element, the Basarabi inhumation groups and irregular and transitional Babadag-Psenichevo burials, like those from Kapitan Andreevo, which got E-V13.

    If somebody being buried in a flexed position, looking like a Kostany-Füzesabony warrior, then its a different category. Even if he is from an area which was later fully Gáva. If an individual being freshly arrived Scythian from the steppe, even if being from Bulgaria, well, he won't be E-V13.
    Last edited by Riverman; 08-22-2022 at 05:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    We can explain fairly adequately on how haplogroup R expanded from Siberia, and haplogroup J somewhere close to Iran, but how did E come to Eurasia? Upstream clades such as E-M78 are clearly North African and Levantine in their distribution.

    To be honest, based on the phylogeny of haplogroup E as a whole, I would not be surprised if really basal branches of E-V13 will be found in Anatolia, and then Thrace/Dacia. Geographically this makes most sense, does it not? I know that basal E-V13 lineages are not found today in Anatolia and the Levant, but this does not mean they were not there in the very distant past.

    I cannot explain in any other way the presence of haplogroup E in Europe. A West-to-East scenario might be possible as well, but this is not supported by any data, ancient or modern, apart from an old Cardium pottery culture sample, whose calls were questionable, if I am not mistaken?
    Eventually I hope we will find 3k+ year old or even 4k+ year old E-V13 samples, and they will tell us more about its origin than any modern distribution could.

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