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Thread: A theory about the origin of E-V13

  1. #4101
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    They were no Sicilians!

    Compare haplogroups of the Thraco-Cimmerian sphere (E-V13, R-Z93, N) with the rest of the samples, they have a different autosomal profile (steppe, Caucasian and Central European-North Balkan) than both the locals and the Greeks:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post878551

    The locals and the Greeks were clustered within "Mediterranean", the Thraco-Cimmerian related groups score Central European-North Balkan, Caucasian and steppe respectively, irrespective of haplogroup (like one Cimmerian R-Z93 and Thracian E-V13, both being "Caucasian"). How exactly he scores, we will see, probably more Thraco-Cimmerian than actual Caucasian, because the older N Thraco-Cimmerian sample, IR1, was also mixed steppe-Caucasian-East Asian.

    These mercenaries stick out, totally, but not by being more Southern or Levantine, but more Northern and steppe primarily, sometimes more Caucasian secondarily.



    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post878551

    A unit of Thraco-Cimmerian mercenary cavalry being slaughtered in that battle of Himera, that's the best explanation. The combination of Thracian E-V13 with quite obvious Cimmerian lineages is just striking.

    We got some accounts for that:



    https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingL...Cimmerians.htm

    From the current paper:


    They used isotopic data - both genetics and the isotopic profile tells us, that they were not locals:




    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pna...tary-materials

    So yes, they were no Sicilians indeed. Whether they were Thracians (especially the Central European-North Balkan E-V13 individuals) is another matter. They could have been Veneti or other people too, but given the context, (more Northern) Thracian is just more likely, coming together with obvious Thraco-Cimmeirans/Cimmerians/Scythians and probably forming together a mercenary cavalry unit.

    This result makes a strong E-V13 presence in early Greeks indeed very unlikely, because this is a solid sample and the only E-V13 carriers are obvious foreigners. We'll have to see what's up in more Northern areas of Greece and other regions, but this is the first solid argument against a significant E-V13 presence in classical Greeks.
    You're coming up with "alternate facts" right now. There are 0 Thracians in Italy (or Siciliy) pre-Roman era.

    The only Balkanites would be Messapics, but we still have no E-V13 from them IIRC.

    "Apart from the spears and spear-heads of 'South-Illyrian' type (...), a connexion can be traced between Albania and Italy through various features in the pottery (shapes, handles; later on also painted geometric decoration); for although in Albania they derive from an earlier local tradition, they seem to represent new elements in Italy. In the same way we can account for the fibulae – typically Illyrian – arching in a simple curve with or without buttons, which one finds in southern Italy and in Sicily, and also some in which the curve is decorated with 'herring-bone' incisions, like examples from the eastern coast of the Adriatic. These influences appear finally in the rites of burial in tumuli in the contracted position, which are seen at this period in southern Italy, especially in Apulia. There is also evidence, as we have seen elsewhere, for supposing that in the diffusion of these Illyrian influences in Italy the Illyrian tribes which were displaced at the beginning of this period from the South-Eastern sea-board of the Adriatic and passed over into Italy may have played a significant role.""

    "During the Second Peloponnesian War between Athens and Sparta, the Mesapii were allies of Athens. They provided archers for Athens' massive expeditionary force sent to attack Syracuse in Sicily (415–13 BC)."
    Last edited by takerunder; 10-04-2022 at 02:06 AM.

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  3. #4102
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    Mixed Pannonian-Illyrians? It’s like saying mixed Bessi-Thracians.
    Daco-Scythian-Thraco-Cimmerian-Sarmatian-Vlachs

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  5. #4103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    My top suggestions would be from the Ligurian-Alpine Hallstatt-Venetian regions or Central Pannonia, Western fringe of Late Gįva/Mezocsat/Vekerzug, mixed with Pannonian-Illyrians based on such a graph. We'll see, hopefully soon.
    Wrong yet again.

    We have solid base of samples such as Etruscans, Italics and Gauls from Italy and they were overlapping with he Spanish and the French on the West Eurasian PCA simply because they had more WHG.

    These V13s cluster and show exact same components in qpAdm modeling as ancient Illyrians, Paeonians and Macedonians.

    They aren't Pannonian - Illyrian mix as you suggest to be. You are stubbornly trying to make a connection with Pannonia but these guys aren't really LBA Hungarian like or mix between this and Balkan IA.

    And the most intriguing thing is that V13 even since the IA was core Balkan haplogroup as the vast majority of ancient samples with V13 are clearly with Balkan origin, even some of those from Hungary, Moldova or Slovakia.

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  7. #4104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Of course it is.
    All IA Thracians turned out V13 or L618 except one R-Z93.
    Such frequency and dominance of V13 isn't seen anywhere else.
    On top of that, these Thracians weren't some single isolated clade as as we see for example with the Illyrians where almost all the Illyrians belong to J-Z28340 but we find clades which previously were thought to have been Illyrian based on modern distribution such as E-BY14160.
    That's why modern distribution means very little and is misleading.

    Yes, I do think the Thracian and Dacian were located exactly where we find them later on during let's say 1500 BCE.
    Basically the whole area of Bulgaria and Romania was part of the same coine or part of a wider complex of Carpathian and Danubian cultures which already displayed some common characteristics and the channeling was certainly known, especially by culture such as Wietenberg.
    You don't need some mass migration from the Gava culture to explain how the channelling became common in EIA Thrace for example.
    I believe that certain migrations did take place but these came rather with the Noua-Sabatinovka culture which invaded Wietenberg and most probably some elements of Wietenberg were dragged along to Thrace.
    That's why we find regular inhumation burials in pits in IA Thrace together with some Noua related markers such as R-Z93 and not some WHG related I2a lineages which were really common for the Carpathian area.

    Riverman is too fixated on Channelled Ware and he has interpreted falsely with Gava when in turn Gava had little to no influence in Thrace and all other elements such as kantharoi and other geometric decorative elements point to nearby region of origin for the style, not the northern Carpathians.

    Plus his claim that we see no strong expansion from Bulgaria is absolutely false.
    In fact as already shown couple of times, Stamped Ware, a native Thracian Ware expanded from Thrace upwards towards Moldova, Transylvania and Pannonia.
    And this is visible in the aDna as well where in Pannonia and Moldova during LaTene and Scythian related cultures we find genomes that resemble Thrace IA or are at least strongly influenced by it where previously such genomes didn't exist.
    And you guess, V13 shows up as well.
    How do you interpret the apparent lack of E-V13 in the Bronze Age Balkans? Do you think it's at least feasible that E-V13 spread to Thrace from outside around the 1700 BCE peak in growth that we identified? Or do you think it spread within Thrace from a smaller region?

    Also how do you interpret the basal lineages found in Western and Central Europe that have not (yet?) been found in the Balkans?
    Last edited by Granary; 10-04-2022 at 08:49 AM.

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  9. #4105
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    Accusing project owners of testing the same families E-V13 is just simply not as high as you wanted it to be, if we test by most common surnames, there is no way that Y-DNA is gonna come out on top. This is why the statistics of Gjenetika are far more reliable than that rrenjet.

    Berishė Pejė Pejė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berisha Berishė Skėnderaj Mitrovicė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berisha Berishė Gjakovė Gjakovė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė-Gec Kastriot Prishtinė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berisha Berishė Pejė Pejė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Gjakovė Gjakovė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Podujevė Prishtinė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Vushtrri Mitrovicė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Prishtinė Prishtinė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Gjilan Gjilan Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishe Viti Gjilan Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Gjilan Gjilan Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė-Mertur Gjakovė Gjakovė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė-Mertur Gjakovė Gjakovė Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Sop Ferizaj Ferizaj Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Sop Ferizaj Ferizaj Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102
    Sop Gjilan Gjilan Kosovė E1b-V13>Z5018>FGC33625>Y93102

    Berishė Pejė Pejė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>Y145455
    Berishė Vushtrri Mitrovicė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Skėnderaj Mitrovicė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Prishtinė Prishtinė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Prishtinė Prishtinė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Fushė-Kosovė Prishtinė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Drenas Prishtinė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Drenas Prishtinė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Gjilan Gjilan Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Pejė Pejė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Pejė Pejė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Gjakovė Gjakovė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102
    Berishė Gjakovė Gjakovė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102

    Berishė Kaēanik Ferizaj Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC11450>Y146086>BY68094>Y160784
    Berishė Drenas Prishtinė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>BY5500
    Berishė Prishtinė Prishtinė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>BY5500>A7065
    Berishė e Kuqe Skėnderaj Mitrovicė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>BY5617>PH2180
    Berishė e Kuqe Skėnderaj Mitrovicė Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>BY5617>PH2180>Y30588
    Berishė Shtime Ferizaj Kosovė E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>BY5617>PH2180>Y30588
    Berishė Prizren Prizren Kosovė J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751>Z38299>FT134 628
    Berishė e Kuqe Malishevė Prizren Kosovė I2a-L460>P37>M423>L621>Y3120
    Berishė Bujanovc Serbi J1-M267>P58>Z1884>FGC12816>FT196614>Y199062>MF167052
    Berishė Prizren Prizren Kosovė E1b-M81



    Some extremely over tested tribe that fall almost all under the same clade and they all fall under e1b.


    Basically Sop, Morina, Berisha are putting the E-V13 there higher than it is.
    Last edited by xz1333; 10-04-2022 at 08:07 AM.

  10. #4106
    I wrote in my first post that modern E-V13 clades will ultimately have different sources. Not all E-V13s in Europe will be from 1 source. However, samples like these "northern" Sicilians are clearly a minority.

    The main E-V13 spread is clearly a Roman-era expansion that happened throughout Europe at the same time. Italy, Greece, Albania, Germany, France, Serbia, Romania, etc... show no Iron Age E-V13s so far, and then it appears. That's clearly 1 event, that's beyond any "Thracian", "Gava", or whatever.

    I think it's quite clear that it's the so called Roman Byzantine migrants with an "Aegean"/"East Med" autosomal profile that transformed the landscape of southern Europe. I don't really care who the ancestors of those E-V13 Turkish samples were. We know Aegean/East Med E-V13 people existed with the exact autosomal profile of the missing "East Med" component found in all of Southern Europe today.



    We keep pretending like this whole massive immigration was entirely "female" mediated, which is utter drivel. These guys had a main Y-DNA.
    Last edited by takerunder; 10-04-2022 at 09:08 AM.

  11. #4107
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    Quote Originally Posted by takerunder View Post
    I wrote in my first post that modern E-V13 clades will ultimately have different sources. Not all E-V13s in Europe will be from 1 source. However, samples like these "northern" Sicilians are clearly a minority.

    The main E-V13 spread is clearly a Roman-era expansion that happened throughout Europe at the same time. Italy, Greece, Albania, Germany, France, Serbia, Romania, etc... show no Iron Age E-V13s so far, and then it appears. That's clearly 1 event, that's beyond any "Thracian", "Gava", or whatever.

    I think it's quite clear that it's the so called Roman Byzantine migrants with an "Aegean"/"East Med" autosomal profile that transformed the landscape of southern Europe. I don't really care who the ancestors of those E-V13 Turkish samples were. We know Aegean/East Med E-V13 people existed with the exact autosomal profile of the missing "East Med" component found in all of Southern Europe today.



    We keep pretending like this whole massive immigration was entirely "female" mediated, which is utter drivel. These guys had a main Y-DNA.
    How did these people magically spread mainly E-V13 and not other ydna lineages? Where was this E-V13 located and why didnt we find it yet?

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  13. #4108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    Mixed Pannonian-Illyrians? It’s like saying mixed Bessi-Thracians.
    You need to know the historical distribution. That's from a period when the La Tene Celtic expansion began, but the borderline between Daco-Thracian and Pannonian-Illyrian is largely the same - it was along the Danube bent, most of the time:


    The mixed zone is between the Danube and Tisza, as well as between Drava and Morava. Incidently, between Danube and Tisza is also where many of the Thraco-Cimmerians, actual Cimmerians and later Scythians, did live. And some of these samples are clearly Cimmerian-Scythian.

    Another way to show that ethnic borderline is to go for the Hallstatt map, because Eastern Hallstatt groups like Frög and Kalenderberg were likely mostly Pannonian, but with Thracian influences:


    I was spreaking about the borderzone of Eastern Hallstatt, Vekerzug and Basarabi in Pannonia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    We have solid base of samples such as Etruscans, Italics and Gauls from Italy and they were overlapping with he Spanish and the French on the West Eurasian PCA simply because they had more WHG.

    These V13s cluster and show exact same components in qpAdm modeling as ancient Illyrians, Paeonians and Macedonians.
    We'll see where they fit. Vekerzug and Basarabi was in Pannonia, don't forget that.

    And the most intriguing thing is that V13 even since the IA was core Balkan haplogroup as the vast majority of ancient samples with V13 are clearly with Balkan origin, even some of those from Hungary, Moldova or Slovakia.
    We know it spread in the Balkans, but that doesn't mean they left the Tisza zone. That's a conclusion we have yet to come by actual samples from there. Like from the Eastern Vekerzug and Proto-Dacian groups. We'll see what the Dacian get and I highly doubt they won't have E-V13. You think the Northern Dacians were E-V13 free? Or had it only on trace levels? I say the opposite. Not as much dominated as Basarabi or Psenichevo, but still a very significant portion and they likely had it in the region of e.g. Transcarpathia since the Bronze Age.

    The Kyjatice J2a sample (Western, more Tumulus culture infuenced sister group of Gįva, he is in the HUN_LBA set in G25 and the later Mezocsat/Thraco-Cimmerian locals (presumably mostly Gįva derived) have somewhat less WHG, even in the West:
    Our two Bronze Age samples, BR1 (1,980–2,190 cal BC) and BR2 (1,110–1,270 cal BC) fall among modern Central European genotypes. Within this period the trade in commodities across Europe increased and the importance of the investigated region as a node is indicated by the growth of heavily fortified settlements in the vicinities of the Carpathian valleys and passes linking North and South26. These two Bronze Age genomes represent the oldest genomic data sampled to date with clear Central European affinities.
    I expect E-V13 in Gįva, especially Lapus II-Gįva to their East (Tisza, Transtisza). And we got hints it was there in the EIA samples.

    The Cimmerian from the Thraco-Cimmerian Mezocsat group which was N (sample IR1):
    A third genomic shift occurs around the turn of the first millennium BC. The single Iron Age genome, sampled from the pre-Scythian Mezőcsįt Culture (Iron Age (IR1), 830–980 cal BC), shows a distinct shift towards Eastern Eurasian genotypes, specifically in the direction of several Caucasus population samples within the reference data set. This result, supported by mtDNA and Y-chromosome haplogroups (N and G2a1, respectively, both with Asian affinities) suggests genomic influences from the East. This is supported by the archaeological record which indicates increased technological and typological affinities with Steppe cultures at this time, including the importation of horse riding, carts, chariots and metallurgical techniques26.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms6257
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-04-2022 at 10:12 AM.

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  15. #4109
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    By the way, this happened on FTDNA:
    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    Discover updates this week:

    - 345 new haplogroup reports (Haplotree changes up until September 23rd)

    - In total, almost 2,600 ancient DNA samples, including all the samples from the Southern Arc and Anglo-Saxon migration papers, two large new studies with a total of 590 samples!

    -In total, over 4,300 academic modern DNA samples from different parts of the world, including 1,200 new from Sardinia

    - New flags added: Druze, Italy (Sardinia), Western Sahara (Sahrawi)


    (from Goran at FTDNA)
    Really a lot of new E-V13 samples from Sardinia and most of them date ot the Iron Age, with very little to no (found none, but did just a very quick check) recent overlap with any other branch and especially not the Balkans. There is a suspicious Hallstatt-Early La Tene timing which gets repeated again and again. Interestingly close to the timing of these Himera samples. Might be a sheer coincidence, but its still interesting to note.

    Check especially E-S2979, if I haven't overlooked one, it should be about 11 (!) new samples under E-S2979. Some are in the same subclades, but the diversity is still striking and as high as in the major populations:
    https://discover.familytreedna.com/y...-FT242056/tree
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-04-2022 at 10:37 AM.

  16. #4110
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    Personally I doubt that these E-V13 samples were themselves Thracians given what (little) we know of their autosomal profiles, I also do not think that there is any real reason to make a necessary connection between them and the R1a-Z93 samples, particularly considering the fact that they cluster completely differently - as far as I am aware - and thus likely came from very different ethno-cultural contexts.

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