A theory about the origin of E-V13

[Bruzmi]

Some other Dodecad K12b maps:

Based on Dodecad K12b, I10946 is HRV_IA-like, I10950 stands between HRV_IA and MNE_LBA/ALB_Cinamak/MKD_BA/Anc. I replicated similar results on genoplot.

[Riverman]

It is interesting how he scores going by that post:

Distance to: Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10950
5.35352221 R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
5.60090171 I4332_Balkans_BronzeAge
6.04594079 R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
6.44662703 SZ43
6.52287513 SZ28
6.71111019 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.23086440 Italian_Veneto
7.23625594 scy197_Scythian
7.54383855 SZ31
7.87443331 I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.91684912 CL36
8.03940296 Italian_Liguria
8.04502952 Italian_Lombardy
8.15066255 Italian_Emilia
8.22446351 Albanian_Kosovo
8.29177303 Italian_Friuli_VG
8.37443132 Italian_Tuscany
8.48451531 I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN
8.77542592 Macedonian_Vardar
8.77560824 Italian_Piedmont

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post879061

On the plot also, he is between Northern Italian populations. Balkans, Veneto, Protovillanovans and later Pannonian "Scythians" and Szolad samples. It's the expected range and interesting to see how a single sample can connect those interrelated groups.

What we can say for sure is that they came from the same tribe, whether they were North or Central Thracians, Illyrians, Paeonians or Veneti people (South Eastern Thracians rather not, based on these profiles):

Distance to: Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
2.91453255 I4332_Balkans_BronzeAge
2.93308711 Italian_Veneto
3.07253967 Italian_Piedmont
3.07743400 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
3.26599143 Italian_Lombardy
3.41303384 R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
3.54881670 SZ28
3.58293176 R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
4.01203190 Italian_Liguria
4.15684977 CL23
4.17394298 R55_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.25921354 I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge
4.52730604 Italian_Emilia
5.03992187 Swiss_Italian
5.07168611 I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN
5.26428533 Italian_Friuli_VG
5.30783383 R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
5.57457622 Italian_Trentino
5.59860697 SZ43
5.90759680 Italian_Tuscany

Veneto and Liguria are interesting hits also.

[rafc]

and we will get samples from Romania, a whole bunch of it, but of course not from the central cremating groups.

What is your source for this?

[Riverman]

What is your source for this?

The paper for which we got this presentation:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post874844

[rafc]

The paper for which we got this presentation:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post874844

I don't that think will have Iron age samples, but that's OK. We need BA far more than IA.

[Riverman]

I don't that think will have Iron age samples, but that's OK. We need BA far more than IA.

The Iron Age sample is not from that group, but the Hungarian one which sampled for the Pannonian presentation. I don't know when or even if they get published. But it should be a wider Gáva context and E-V13.

[Kelmendasi]

I do not think the two E-V13 samples can be labelled as Thracians before anything else judging by their autosomal profiles. If anything they seem to be Illyrian-like so an origin from the western Balkans seems to be likeliest. If so this would be fairly big as they are two extra E-V13 samples coming from the Illyrian sphere.

[Kelmendasi]

The low-coverage Caucasian-like E-V13 sample:

Distance to: Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951
6.29254321 Ingush
7.36709576 Adyghe
7.60310463 Ossetian
7.74087204 Chechen
7.86500477 Ossetian_South
8.85547288 Karachay
9.48159797 Circassian
9.59509771 Balkar
9.64149366 I1409_ARE20_Middle_Late_Chalcolithic_Vayots-Dzor_Armenia
10.13562036 Abazin
10.29306077 Kumyk
10.94145329 Kabardin
11.81789744 Abkhazian
11.86998315 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
12.37148334 Tabasaran
12.72324251 Lezgin
12.96103777 I1656_KAT16_Kura-Araxes_Middle/Late_Bronze_Age_Aragatsotn_Armenia
12.97334575 Lak
13.13348392 Dargin_Kubachi
13.46642863 Georgian_Kartli-Kakheti

The distances are very large as should be expected with such a low coverage sample. It does not seem to be anything like the Cimmerian samples.

[Riverman]

I do not think the two E-V13 samples can be labelled as Thracians before anything else judging by their autosomal profiles. If anything they seem to be Illyrian-like so an origin from the western Balkans seems to be likeliest. If so this would be fairly big as they are two extra E-V13 samples coming from the Illyrian sphere.

I never had any doubts that E-V13 would be present in Iron Age Illyrians, since there were extensive contacts with the Channelled Ware and Basarabi groups, which moved South and West. Some even reaching the Dalmatian coast and might have come to Italy, actually.
However, I would be careful the autosomal assignment also, because they might be e.g. Northern Thracians, Central Thracians or Veneti (and Liburnians) too. Obviously the bulk of the Basarabi people is supposed to be somewhere between Illyrians/Pannonians and South Eastern Thracians. Where they will plot exactly, we don't really know.
If we would have the Viminacium samples, the more North Balkan group might be interesting to compare them with, but we don't have those. But I wouldn't wonder if they came from an Illyrian group, even though such a group is less likely because we have no other haplogroups in their cluster, especially no J-L283. So having two separated old branches in a sample of just two with such a similar profile, that makes Illyrians not impossible but less likely. Because while I don't doubt that Illyrians got E-V13, I highly doubt that it was the dominant haplogroup in any Illyrian formation. Best chances in Dardanians of course, because they being almost half-Thracian anyway.

The low-coverage Caucasian-like E-V13 sample:

Distance to: Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951
6.29254321 Ingush
7.36709576 Adyghe
7.60310463 Ossetian
7.74087204 Chechen
7.86500477 Ossetian_South
8.85547288 Karachay
9.48159797 Circassian
9.59509771 Balkar
9.64149366 I1409_ARE20_Middle_Late_Chalcolithic_Vayots-Dzor_Armenia
10.13562036 Abazin
10.29306077 Kumyk
10.94145329 Kabardin
11.81789744 Abkhazian
11.86998315 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
12.37148334 Tabasaran
12.72324251 Lezgin
12.96103777 I1656_KAT16_Kura-Araxes_Middle/Late_Bronze_Age_Aragatsotn_Armenia
12.97334575 Lak
13.13348392 Dargin_Kubachi
13.46642863 Georgian_Kartli-Kakheti

The distances are very large as should be expected with such a low coverage sample. It does not seem to be anything like the Cimmerian samples.

The R-Z93 has a clearly Caucasian profile of the same sort and the Thraco-Cimmerians had particularly close ties to the Caucasus, from which some of the innovations in e.g. iron metallurgy might have been coming from. Therefore I would not exclude a Thraco-Cimmerian connection, like backflow from the North Caucasus zone within their networks. The combination of E-V13 with R-Z93 is at least a clear indicator for such a possibility. No final proof of course.

[Kelmendasi]

I never had any doubts that E-V13 would be present in Iron Age Illyrians, since there were extensive contacts with the Channelled Ware and Basarabi groups, which moved South and West. Some even reaching the Dalmatian coast and might have come to Italy, actually.
However, I would be careful the autosomal assignment also, because they might be e.g. Northern Thracians, Central Thracians or Veneti (and Liburnians) too. Obviously the bulk of the Basarabi people is supposed to be somewhere between Illyrians/Pannonians and South Eastern Thracians. Where they will plot exactly, we don't really know.
If we would have the Viminacium samples, the more North Balkan group might be interesting to compare them with, but we don't have those. But I wouldn't wonder if they came from an Illyrian group, even though such a group is less likely because we have no other haplogroups in their cluster, especially no J-L283. So having two separated old branches in a sample of just two with such a similar profile, that makes Illyrians not impossible but less likely. Because while I don't doubt that Illyrians got E-V13, I highly doubt that it was the dominant haplogroup in any Illyrian formation. Best chances in Dardanians of course, because they being almost half-Thracian anyway.

What makes you so confident that northern and central Thracian groups will plot similar to these samples? Even if they did, I do not think the glaring similarity to the current Illyrian samples (particularly HRV_IA) should be dismissed simply because those Thracians could plot similarly.

This was an employment and movement of mercenaries, not a large-scale migration of peoples. As such I do not think the absence of J2b-L283 is relevant in forming a theory that these samples arrived from the Illyrian sphere. We do not need J2b-L283 to determine this. However, I suppose an association with Venetic-speakers - including the Liburnians - is possible and I personally view it as more likely than with Thracian-speakers.