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Thread: A theory about the origin of E-V13

  1. #411
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    Phrygian cap was ultra typical of Thracians and Dacians. Maybe this has a longer history. If these claims about Armenochori being proto-Bryges are true, it could be that this was the original identity of V13 in EBA (Cetina phase). And as the Thracians came to be in LBA/EIA some old traditions were maybe passed on.

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    Indeed archeologists say that Matt-painted pottery develops out of Matt-painted pottery from Maliq IIId2, so it should be local. EBA Maliq III does have Cetina connections, and we do know that Posušje culture from Dalmatia expanded to Northern Albania, presumably bringing the J-L283 to Albania. We also know that Cetina and Dinara people were different, and of different origins. So surely their cousins to the North and to the South of Shkumbin were also very different in Y-DNA etc. Eleonora Petrova claims that only in Southern Albania existed the more coherent Brygian territory after their cultural cohesion was slowly broken up since the 8th century BC.

    I guess the main Phrygian hg was R-L584 (there are still some Balkan subclades), elements active in EBA Adriatic that played part in genesis of Cetina culture were the older Yamnaya, and it stands to reason they could have been basal R-Z2103 clades. Especially as R-CTS7556 were still in Maros culture, so they may not have descended still to the coast in the very EBA.

    In any case I do think this proposed parallel between Southern Albania and Brygians holds significant ground.

  3. #413
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    Glad I don't have to invent tales to cope with the origin of my haplo. Hopefully things will become clearer for E-V13 in the future
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  4. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    Glad I don't have to invent tales to cope with the origin of my haplo. Hopefully things will become clearer for E-V13 in the future
    Lol what tales? Its simple at this point. It’s either of Levantine origin brought there by toforalt related mushabians from Nile valley and then into Europe via Anatolia, or it came directly from North African Toforalt related culture. Either way it’s African, but African does not equal modern sub Saharan negroid. Nile valley remains of Khazer and mechtoid-Afalou show closer relations craniometrically to paleo Euros than they do to negroids. So what is there to cope about? I personally think its actually cool to be descendants of such a unique population. Anyone coping needs to find their African pride lmao

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  6. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Those rough approximations where Messapians might have dwelled are secondary to archeological evidence. Their pottery has been identified and it is Matt-painted pottery with parallels in Southern Albania. Alojz Benac wrote on this when he weighted whether there wes a supposed connection between Iapodes and Messapians. His conclusion was that there wasn't. Later Liburnians during their domination of the seas when they reached S.Italy carried some Messapian elements to their native area.
    These are not "rough approximations". This is the map of the exact find spots of all the Messapic inscriptions, the language which is Albanoid. The highest density is in the region of the Kalabri. There is nothing rough about tribal ethnicity and language.


    It is much harder to adopt a language and tribal name than it is to import pots. The strait of otranto favours imports coming from south Albania directly into south italy because it is the closest distance, so there can easily be a situation created by the economic conditions in which they just imported pots/potmakers from southern albania because it was cheaper.


  7. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Albanians are mentioned apr. 1000 years ago as a people in historical sources. It is reasonable to assume the ethnogenesis of proto-Albanians occurred few centuries before and that therefore expansive lineages that are 1000-1500 years old most likely formed the bulk of proto-Albanians. Additionally such linages should be found in both Ghegs and Tosks. Such lineages exist among the V13. They comprise 3-4 % in Albanians. Yet the most widespread seemingly proto-Albanian clade is not E-V13 or J-L283, it is R-Z2705.

    Is it not a bit odd that a Steppe descended R-Z2103 clade that is 1500 years old has managed to reach up to 15 % in Ghegs and 10 % in Tosks, and has had far more success than any other hg for no reason?? No. it is logical to assume proto-Albanian speakers were at one point in time almost exclusively R-Z2705. And that compared to R-Z2705 all other clades are less proto-Albanian. Many E-V13 and J-L283 clades try and fail to achieve such strength yet a single R-Z2103 does. Because this is the proto-Albanian clade??
    Sincerely, yet again, I am not talking about proto-Albanian. I am talking about Albanoid. I do not deny anywhere that proto-Albanian expansion and R-Z2103 are connected.

    I am talking about the wider Albanoid group and believe that E-V13 is the one, because of the shared features in both Bulgarian, Macedonian, but also Messapic.

    I see E-V13 as the mediator of Albanoid features.


    "Schumacher and Matzinger believe Albanian came into existence separately from Illyrian, orginating from the Indo-European family tree during the second millennium BC, somewhere in the northern Balkans.

    The language’s broad shape resembles Greek. It appears to have developed lineally until the 15th century, when the first extant text comes to light.

    “One thing we know for sure is that a language which, with some justification, we can call Albanian has been around for at least 3,000 years,” Schumacher says. “Even though it was not written down for millennia, Albanian existed as a separate entity,” he added."

    Joachim Matzinger & Stefan Shumacher. 2011


    "Albanian is closely related to Illyrian and Messapic (a language spoken in Southern Italy in antiquity but originally of Balkan origin), which is why Albanian in some instances may shed light on the explanation of Messapic as well as Illyrian words"

    Joachim Matzinger
    2018

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    While being convinced of strong "Albanoid"-E-V13 connection it seems as if you are not satisfied with the supposed EIA/LBA continuity and you try to extend it further. Reminiscent of Protochronists who are never satisfied with the supposed age of their precious ethnicity, so it has be be older and older..
    Recently an Albanian archaeologist had a lecture in which he showed carbon dating evidence that Durrës had been found earlier than the Greek founding myth. Straight away, he was accused by some of the other present people of Albanian nationalism.

    This is the situation of projection, in which a nationalist or false narrative is so normalised, that immediately if you see evidence that counters it some knee-jerk reactionaries get ready to project their own nationalism back at you.

    Likewise, you are wrong in projecting your BS on to me. I am not trying to make my "precious ethnicity older and older". I am going by the evidence. Dardanian mercenaries appear already in 1270BC. This means Dardanians must have already been formed at least by 1300BC. Anatolian Dardania and Balkan Dardani are without a doubt most likely related. Albanian most likely comes from Dardanian. Do the math.

  9. #418
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    Because of the central importance of Messapic and Dardanii and Albanian relation, the Dardanoi of Anatolia also become relevant in constructing the phylogeny of Albanoid (which I believe had main E-V13 component). Thus also the dating of the Trojan war here becomes crucial.

    Here is a well detailed lecture and argument that the Trojan war occurred ~1400BC.

    https://www.blod.gr/lectures/the-tro...ical-findings/

  10. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scythoslav View Post
    Lol what tales? Its simple at this point. It’s either of Levantine origin brought there by toforalt related mushabians from Nile valley and then into Europe via Anatolia, or it came directly from North African Toforalt related culture. Either way it’s African, but African does not equal modern sub Saharan negroid. Nile valley remains of Khazer and mechtoid-Afalou show closer relations craniometrically to paleo Euros than they do to negroids. So what is there to cope about? I personally think its actually cool to be descendants of such a unique population. Anyone coping needs to find their African pride lmao
    What is African about E-V13?
    Any paper I have read about E-V13 says it was probably born in Europe and most likely in the Balkans. I never heard that E-V13 is African or anything of that.
    Even E-L618 could have been born in Europe as well going by the ancient samples which are all found in an European context thus far. Even by modern diversity, L618 doesn't reveal any other origin than European. Some MENA E-L618(xV13) samples share BA MRCA with Europeans and it's rather obvious these are the result of some ancient European migrations to the ME and NA.
    TMRCA of E-L618 is 8100 ybp according to YFULL or 6100 BCE. This is the time when the AF already migrated in Europe and so the origins of E-L618 are most likely in Europe as well. The formation date of E-L618 is taken by the TMRCA date of it's ancestor E-Z1919 but this is rather speculative and not as precise as the TMRCA dating hence it's not reliable. In other words, it's very possible that the formation date of E-L618 is the same or close to it's TMRCA dating.
    Which means that only non European would be some E-Z1919(xL618) ancestor that most probably moved in Europe with the early farmers.

    So, what does African in origin mean to you?
    If we go enough back in time all haplogroups originate from an A haplogroup ancestor that was born in Africa hence by that logic we can say that all haplogroups are African in origin. Well, Homo Sapiens did migrate out of Africa, right? So we are all Africans then. Time for Africans to claim all the humankind as they are the oldest...

    But, if we going to argue who had the most recent African ancestors out of all haplogroups, then yeah, we can confirm that E-V13 would be among those haplogroups. And with TMRCA of 8100 ybp of it's ancestor E-L618, V13 is more European than many other present day European haplogroups by the way.

    Which leaves us to either E-Z1919 or E-M78 or both being African in origin. E-Z1919 with TMRCA of 11900 ybp is split in two major haplogroups, E-V22 and E-L618. E-V22 is overwhelmingly Middle Eastern and Egyptian while E-L618 overwhelmingly European. Which brings the center of gravity closer to the Meadle Eastern and Levantine origin for E-Z1919 rather than an African.
    Anyhow, we can comfortably say that E-V13 and it's ancestors have been out of Africa already during the period between 11900 - 8100 ybp.

    Anyway, constantly writing here about some non verifiable North African migration and some African origin of E-V13 makes me think you are either stuck in 2010 and haven't kept much with the flow since then or either just a troll...
    Last edited by Aspar; 06-13-2021 at 10:54 AM.
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    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  12. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    I agree that Brygians have their place somewhere. This Matt-painted pottery has been attributed to them also, other than Messapians, even Dorians. Possibly during the Bronze Age collapse movements some of these traits expanded to other groups involved in migrations.

    Theories about proto-Bryges actually involve claims that the Armenochori and Maliq III a-b cultures were the proto-Brygians. These cultures are Early Bronze Age Southernmost extensions of a complex that included even the Cetina culture in many respects. Rafc in his paper about EBA expansion of V13 included the Armenochori group as one vector of EBA E-V13 expansion from Cetina. Posibly this still holds some truth. I still am convinced that E-V13 began in proto-Cetina phase. There are some clades such as E-CTS5856* (not tested for BY3880) in Western Albania and Macedonians who are E-BY3880*, so Balkan clades without relatives closer than 4400/4500 years might be related to these cultures.

    And so that in the EBA the Shkumbin river was the border between the proto-Brygian to the South and proto-Illyrian elements to the North. "Proto-Illyrian" here being the southernmost extensions of the Posušje culture where J-L283 was found. And where I strongly suspect this new LBA/MBA Albanian J-L283 is from.

    If this is true then the Brygians would have occupied the area south of Shkumbin river, in LBA/EIA there was a migration of Brnjica group to this area which is one likely vector of how some E-V13 (younger) clades arrived to the area.

    Matt-painted pottery per Garašanin descends from S.Albania, so this could be a Brygian invention that was adopted by the proto-Messapian (Brnjica/Mediana related) migrants.

    And even Kuc i Zi complex has been attributed to them as well. These are some possible Brygo-Messapian connections, even though I believe they were quite distinct peoples.

    In any case people to the north and south of Shkumbin river were different people by origin, even though in Antiquity both areas were "Illyrian".
    https://m.facebook.com/AlbanianArcha...4076255311798/

    According to this article, the Albanian and other archaeologists date the appearance of the Matt painted pottery in Maliq during the phase Maliq IIId which itself in the context of Aegean chronology is defined as LBA. Thus there is no way how this style would have been spread to Greece from South Albanian when the Minoans already decorated their pottery with Matt paint already during the Middle Helladic period (2000-1550) BCE. In other words, the Mycenaean Matt painted pottery has its origins in the Middle Helladic Minoan period.
    If you have read some of my previous posts about archaeological finds of the Ulanci-Vardar group then you would have seen that Mycenaean Matt painted pottery and other Mycenaean related finds appeared there during the second phase of the LBA or approximately the same time as in Maliq.
    In other words, both Epirus and South Albania and Macedonia were part of the same cultural process that was mainly characterised by Mycenaean Matt painted pottery, in the case of South Albania and West Macedonia(Maliq IIId and Servia) polychrome and monochrome handmade Matt painted pottery and in the case of Central Macedonia(Ulanci-Vardar-Kastania) monochrome handmade Matt painted pottery. Both of these cultural groups were also characterised by Incised and Encrusted Pottery which had it's appearence in the beginning of the LBA and just before the Matt painted pottery. Thus it's obvious that both these cultural groups were overwhelmed by both Danubian and Mycenaean influences. Although the Albanian archaeologists do say that the appearance of the Matt painted pottery in South Albania is not the result of Mycenaean migration in South Albania but the result of a local production, something similar to what Macedonian archaeologists say about the Ulanci-Vardar group and the only migration that happened they attributed to a group from the Danubian area(Incised Encrusted Pottery).

    Before the LBA the other significant changes in Maliq happened with appearance of Armenochori group artifacts and corded ware Pottery around 2100 BCE as a result of a Steppe related intrusion in the South Balkans.

    Out of this I would say that the appearance of Incised Encrusted Pottery correlates most closely with the appearance of E-V13 in the South Balkans for the first time. Later waves of E-V13 related subclades probably appeared with the invasion of Brnjica and Gava-Belegis people.

    After the transitional period and with the invasion of people from Brnjica and Gava-Belegis Cultures the Ulanci-Vardar group disappeared however in South Albania, West Macedonia and Epirus there was a clear continuation of the previous cultural traits such as the Matt painted pottery and so on. This was clearly the zone where the Doric Greek-Macedonian-Brygian population survived and which was able to expand after the Dark ages.
    Last edited by Aspar; 06-13-2021 at 01:57 PM.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
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    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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