A theory about the origin of E-V13

[CopperAxe]

I mentioned the date myself, but I agree that we simply don't know when it came and which route it took, with the early Scythian disperal looking not particularly likely because of the sampling which we already got. That's no final verdict, but let's say it is not the most likely explanation.
We also know that there were later pick-ups from the Pontic steppe, like for the Tatars, which picked up both E-V13 and core Germanic lineages (I-M253 and R-U106), with a lot of R-Z93, and brough it deep into Russia - together with a founder lineage of J-L283.

However, it doesn't look like that for E-V13 in Central-East Asia, yet we can't say for sure which later movements could have brought it.

Only more testing will make it sure. But the Greek disperal, I agree with Aspar completely on that, looks not very likely. I would even rather go with Kurds-Iranians moving up later, having had it from the Caucasus and steppe before, than the Greeks. Because any kind of Greek impact on those regions is truly miniscule if present at all, and the diversity and branches of these E-V13 carriers, as far as they are known, point to a rather Northern and steppe route - even if they ended up in Eastern Anatolia eventually for example.
Take those Caucasian Himeran E-V13 and R-Z93, we know they lived there for long, probably with the Thraco-Cimmerian connection indeed.

The Caucasian sample with Z93 has it due to the simple reason that Northwest Caucasian populations such as Maeotians got geneflow from late bronze age Srubnaya populations. As you can see the sample has steppe_mlba but no south siberian ancestry, which ties in with the clade being related to a main Sarmatian clade which had a significant amount of Srubnaya continuity, reflected patrilineally as well. Z93 there has little to do with "Thraco-Cimmerians" in all likelihood. E-V13 is another story but this could also be due to different reasons such as nautical contacts across the Black Sea.

E-V13 in Kurds is not going to come from the short Scythian epoch in West Asia amounting to a few decades of rule of Media either. The Scythians back then still lived in the Don-Volga area so it is not as if they had significant Thracian contact that early. And besides that event there are no other events that could potentially lead to a significant Scythian contribution (which Kurds do not have).

[Riverman]

The Caucasian sample with Z93 has it due to the simple reason that Northwest Caucasian populations such as Maeotians got geneflow from late bronze age Srubnaya populations. As you can see the sample has steppe_mlba but no south siberian ancestry, which ties in with the clade being related to a main Sarmatian clade which had a significant amount of Srubnaya continuity, reflected patrilineally as well. Z93 there has little to do with "Thraco-Cimmerians" in all likelihood. E-V13 is another story but this could also be due to different reasons such as nautical contacts across the Black Sea.

The more parsimonious explanation is that the R-Z93 is indeed closer related to the Thracians and came with people originally associated with Sabatinovka, which are known for their intensive contacts with possible E-V13 candidate groups within the Noua-Coslogeni horizon, which includes contacts to Eastern Otomani, Suciu de Sus and especially Wietenberg. They were originally "pure Srubna" and picked only local Carpatho-Balkan and steppe ancestry up.
Their remains were incorporated into the Cimmerian/Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. We know that the Cimmerians had intensive Caucasian contacts and high levels of Caucasian admixture in various samples.
By the time of the Himeran samples, those elements were still floating around to put it that way.

[Bruzmi]

E-V13 in Kurds is not going to come from the short Scythian epoch in West Asia amounting to a few decades of rule of Media either. The Scythians back then still lived in the Don-Volga area so it is not as if they had significant Thracian contact that early. And besides that event there are no other events that could potentially lead to a significant Scythian contribution (which Kurds do not have).

For E-V13 and some other haplogroups which are usually concentrated west of Anatolia, I believe that the Hellenistic era is a likely starting point for their presence in Anatolia and for some cases maybe individuals from Europe who moved as mercenaries in Persian Empire. There are also some more unlikely options like mercenaries from Europe which were definitely part of the Neo-Assyrian Empire.

When we refer to the Hellenistic era, this doesn't necessarily refer just to ancient Greeks but many others who moved from Europe towards Asia including even Celts. I don't see why a movement in this era is unlikely. From a historical perspective, it is more likely than most other periods.

For SCY197 in Moldova, we should not forget that this sample isn't even dated, hence we don't know in which era this individual lived.

[Riverman]

For E-V13 and some other haplogroups which are usually concentrated west of Anatolia, I believe that the Hellenistic era is a likely starting point for their presence in Anatolia and for some cases maybe individuals from Europe who moved as mercenaries in Persian Empire. There are also some more unlikely options like mercenaries from Europe which were definitely part of the Neo-Assyrian Empire.

When we refer to the Hellenistic era, this doesn't necessarily refer just to ancient Greeks but many others who moved from Europe towards Asia including even Celts. I don't see why a movement in this era is unlikely. From a historical perspective, it is more likely than most other periods.

One commenter wrote about people, clans in Kurdistan being called Thracian associated even up to recently. No idea how reliable that was, because I tried to find something on that, but wasn't successful.

For SCY197 in Moldova, we should not forget that this sample isn't even dated, hence we don't know in which era this individual lived.

It fits perfectly in the context of the other Moldovan "Scythians" and we know from the archaeological remains that the "Scythians" in most of the Carpatho-Balkans, with the exception of some notable actual Scythian concentrations in specific places, were actually Daco-Thracians. We also see that similar profiles from Pannonia/the Carpathian basin and Moldova being constantly exchanged, like Moldovan-like popping up in Hungary and Hungarian-like popping up in Moldova. There is little doubt this individual was a Scythianised Thracian and he wasn't the only one.

[Bruzmi]

It fits perfectly in the context of the other Moldovan "Scythians" and we know from the archaeological remains that the "Scythians" in most of the Carpatho-Balkans, with the exception of some notable actual Scythian concentrations in specific places, were actually Daco-Thracians. We also see that similar profiles from Pannonia/the Carpathian basin and Moldova being constantly exchanged, like Moldovan-like popping up in Hungary and Hungarian-like popping up in Moldova. There is little doubt this individual was a Scythianised Thracian and he wasn't the only one.

I don't see any "Scythianization". His profile isn't similar to profiles from Pannonia which reflect contacts with Avars or Sarmatians in the Roman era. His "closest" profiles in Pannonia are those which are identical to modern southern Balkan/Italian populations.

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy197
Distance: 3.5239% / 0.03523852
63.2	TUR_Barcin_N
30.6	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.8	SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
1.0	Nganassan
0.8	GEO_CHG
0.6	Han

Distance to:	Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.03235596	HUN_middle_Avar:HH102
0.03305237	HUN_early_Avar:MM131
0.03333273	HUN_late_Avar:SZKT265
0.03355405	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.03386203	MNE_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481
0.03440252	SRB_Svilos_Krusevlje:R6701
0.03448790	MNE_LBA:I13167
0.03466258	HRV_BA:I18748
0.03481747	HUN_middle_Avar:SSD144
0.03510918	ALB_MA:I13834
0.03521203	SVN_Emona:R10467
0.03568571	SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11721
0.03569426	HUN_La_Tene:I18493
0.03586429	ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
0.03592852	HUN_Conqueror_elite:K233
0.03604426	HRV_Gardun:R3544
0.03658023	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.03676034	HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.03683699	HUN_EIA:I25507
0.03698110	MKD_Anc:I10388
0.03699059	HUN_LBA_EIA:I11683
0.03735294	MNE_LBA:I13172
0.03747412	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
0.03750194	ALB_MA:I13839
0.03759260	MKD_BA:I7231

Distance to:	Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.03326032	Italian_Lombardy
0.03589914	Greek_Thessaly
0.03626215	Albanian
0.03630896	Italian_Liguria
0.03669547	Italian_Tuscany
0.03692617	Italian_Emilia
0.03709442	Italian_Piedmont
0.03832955	Italian_Bergamo
0.03888677	Greek_Messenia
0.03915111	French_Corsica
0.03980169	Greek_Argolis
0.03982973	Greek_Arcadia
0.03988831	Italian_Marche
0.03992968	Swiss_Italian
0.04004753	Greek_Macedonia
0.04031047	Greek_Achaea
0.04067378	Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04119478	Italian_Umbria
0.04130075	Greek_Corinthia
0.04162860	Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.04167295	Italian_Veneto
0.04176864	Greek_West_Taygetos
0.04201333	Greek_Elis
0.04208470	Greek_Peloponnese
0.04231860	Italian_Lazio

[Archetype0ne]

I don't see any "Scythianization". His profile isn't similar to profiles from Pannonia which reflect contacts with Avars or Sarmatians in the Roman era. His "closest" profiles in Pannonia are those which are identical to modern southern Balkan/Italian populations.

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy197
Distance: 3.5239% / 0.03523852
63.2	TUR_Barcin_N
30.6	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.8	SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
1.0	Nganassan
0.8	GEO_CHG
0.6	Han

Distance to:	Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.03235596	HUN_middle_Avar:HH102
0.03305237	HUN_early_Avar:MM131
0.03333273	HUN_late_Avar:SZKT265
0.03355405	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.03386203	MNE_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481
0.03440252	SRB_Svilos_Krusevlje:R6701
0.03448790	MNE_LBA:I13167
0.03466258	HRV_BA:I18748
0.03481747	HUN_middle_Avar:SSD144
0.03510918	ALB_MA:I13834
0.03521203	SVN_Emona:R10467
0.03568571	SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11721
0.03569426	HUN_La_Tene:I18493
0.03586429	ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
0.03592852	HUN_Conqueror_elite:K233
0.03604426	HRV_Gardun:R3544
0.03658023	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.03676034	HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.03683699	HUN_EIA:I25507
0.03698110	MKD_Anc:I10388
0.03699059	HUN_LBA_EIA:I11683
0.03735294	MNE_LBA:I13172
0.03747412	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
0.03750194	ALB_MA:I13839
0.03759260	MKD_BA:I7231

Distance to:	Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.03326032	Italian_Lombardy
0.03589914	Greek_Thessaly
0.03626215	Albanian
0.03630896	Italian_Liguria
0.03669547	Italian_Tuscany
0.03692617	Italian_Emilia
0.03709442	Italian_Piedmont
0.03832955	Italian_Bergamo
0.03888677	Greek_Messenia
0.03915111	French_Corsica
0.03980169	Greek_Argolis
0.03982973	Greek_Arcadia
0.03988831	Italian_Marche
0.03992968	Swiss_Italian
0.04004753	Greek_Macedonia
0.04031047	Greek_Achaea
0.04067378	Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04119478	Italian_Umbria
0.04130075	Greek_Corinthia
0.04162860	Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.04167295	Italian_Veneto
0.04176864	Greek_West_Taygetos
0.04201333	Greek_Elis
0.04208470	Greek_Peloponnese
0.04231860	Italian_Lazio

Would be helpful if someone was to check the IBD of those "Scythians".

[CopperAxe]

I don't see any "Scythianization". His profile isn't similar to profiles from Pannonia which reflect contacts with Avars or Sarmatians in the Roman era. His "closest" profiles in Pannonia are those which are identical to modern southern Balkan/Italian populations.

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy197
Distance: 3.5239% / 0.03523852
63.2	TUR_Barcin_N
30.6	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.8	SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
1.0	Nganassan
0.8	GEO_CHG
0.6	Han

Distance to:	Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.03235596	HUN_middle_Avar:HH102
0.03305237	HUN_early_Avar:MM131
0.03333273	HUN_late_Avar:SZKT265
0.03355405	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.03386203	MNE_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481
0.03440252	SRB_Svilos_Krusevlje:R6701
0.03448790	MNE_LBA:I13167
0.03466258	HRV_BA:I18748
0.03481747	HUN_middle_Avar:SSD144
0.03510918	ALB_MA:I13834
0.03521203	SVN_Emona:R10467
0.03568571	SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11721
0.03569426	HUN_La_Tene:I18493
0.03586429	ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
0.03592852	HUN_Conqueror_elite:K233
0.03604426	HRV_Gardun:R3544
0.03658023	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.03676034	HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.03683699	HUN_EIA:I25507
0.03698110	MKD_Anc:I10388
0.03699059	HUN_LBA_EIA:I11683
0.03735294	MNE_LBA:I13172
0.03747412	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
0.03750194	ALB_MA:I13839
0.03759260	MKD_BA:I7231

Distance to:	Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.03326032	Italian_Lombardy
0.03589914	Greek_Thessaly
0.03626215	Albanian
0.03630896	Italian_Liguria
0.03669547	Italian_Tuscany
0.03692617	Italian_Emilia
0.03709442	Italian_Piedmont
0.03832955	Italian_Bergamo
0.03888677	Greek_Messenia
0.03915111	French_Corsica
0.03980169	Greek_Argolis
0.03982973	Greek_Arcadia
0.03988831	Italian_Marche
0.03992968	Swiss_Italian
0.04004753	Greek_Macedonia
0.04031047	Greek_Achaea
0.04067378	Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04119478	Italian_Umbria
0.04130075	Greek_Corinthia
0.04162860	Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.04167295	Italian_Veneto
0.04176864	Greek_West_Taygetos
0.04201333	Greek_Elis
0.04208470	Greek_Peloponnese
0.04231860	Italian_Lazio

The sample has almost 2% east asian ancestry just like several others from Glinoe, where is this coming from if not from the Scythians just east of Glinoe?

[CopperAxe]

The more parsimonious explanation is that the R-Z93 is indeed closer related to the Thracians and came with people originally associated with Sabatinovka, which are known for their intensive contacts with possible E-V13 candidate groups within the Noua-Coslogeni horizon, which includes contacts to Eastern Otomani, Suciu de Sus and especially Wietenberg. They were originally "pure Srubna" and picked only local Carpatho-Balkan and steppe ancestry up.
Their remains were incorporated into the Cimmerian/Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. We know that the Cimmerians had intensive Caucasian contacts and high levels of Caucasian admixture in various samples.
By the time of the Himeran samples, those elements were still floating around to put it that way.

Srubnaya was present just north of the Caucasus, this is the parsimonious explanation, not that the Z93 in the Caucasian sample came from Romania or thereabouts.

Fyi none of the Cimmerian period samples have "high caucasus" ancestry. When looking at the actual territories the historical Cimmerians lived we only have one sample, that is MK3001. The other "Cimmerians" are just Pre-Scythians from the Chernogorovka culture. Cimmerian materials in West Asia are entirely Novocherkassk.

[Archetype0ne]

The sample has almost 2% east asian ancestry just like several others from Glinoe, where is this coming from if not from the Scythians just east of Glinoe?

There were several ancient samples that show some weird 1-2% East Asian / Native American like signature in the Balkans. I did not keep documentation sadly, but if one was to run a model for the known Balkan samples, they are there. I myself show this 1-2%, so am very interested in pinpointing it.

[Riverman]

I don't see any "Scythianization". His profile isn't similar to profiles from Pannonia which reflect contacts with Avars or Sarmatians in the Roman era. His "closest" profiles in Pannonia are those which are identical to modern southern Balkan/Italian populations.

Cultural Scythianisation, otherwise the samples wouldn't be labelled that way.

Otherwise the Moldovans are more Southern than the Pannonians, but we find both profiles on each side of the Carpathians, and on both sides with E-V13. Additionally, the Eastern Carpathian groups had recent Basarabi and Psenichevo settlement influence, as well as Greek contacts, so no wonder they are more Southern than those West of the Carpathians on average.

Srubnaya was present just north of the Caucasus, this is the parsimonious explanation, not that the Z93 in the Caucasian sample came from Romania or thereabouts.

Fyi none of the Cimmerian period samples have "high caucasus" ancestry. When looking at the actual territories the historical Cimmerians lived we only have one sample, that is MK3001. The other "Cimmerians" are just Pre-Scythians from the Chernogorovka culture. Cimmerian materials in West Asia are entirely Novocherkassk.

Pre-Scythians is just Cimmerian and Thraco-Cimmerian for the most part, being a steppe alliance which created to the West the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon.

My point was not that the R-Z93 must have been from the Carpathians, but that the R-Z93 heavy networks soaked up some E-V13 which ended side by side with him for a reason.