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Thread: Guanches compared to modern Berbers— how different?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angoliga View Post
    I'm seeing a sizable affinity but it's on a *very rudimentary run:

     
    This can't be accounted as affinity unless you add Iranic neolithic source or CHG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bealfire View Post
    Lol, how do you know that?

    A likely scenario for Canaries is that they were discovered by Carthaginian expeditions into Africa. They even reached Guinea.

    Once discovered people naturally came to settle coming via Phoenician harbors such as Tangiers, Sale and Azilah which lie in the Nothern Morocco. The most southern Carthaginian harbor of Morocco is Mazagan (nearby Casablanca).

    It would kinda match the profile of Guanches ranging from very Riffian-like to something abit noticeably southern and higher in Iberomaurusian ancestry.

    Carthage's destruction would have put the islands into isolation and without Carthaginians and Numidians coming back and forth regularly people became isolated.
    Canary isalnds are near southern morroco which make it plausible that the people who migrated there were from southern Morocco ,
    The people who migrated to the islands were berber speakers not Phenocians.

    the http://nicerthannew.com/wp-content/u...anetware-4.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Guanches come up with minor Sub-Saharan ancestry on top of Taforalt in the models posted above. They also have a good deal of mt hg L3b1a, which is probably West African. So I'd be surprised if they don't have actual Sub-Saharan ancestry.
    they were 3 samples from Gran Canaria only not the other islands which showed only eurasian related lineages , i would be cautious about drawing conclusions here.
    I think the study of Fregel 2009 studied studied more samples and it showed 7% lineages, this would be more accurate as a reference of there maternal affinity.
    The majority of lineages (93%) were from West Eurasian origin, being the rest (7%) from sub-Saharan African ascription.
    This interested comment from the guanche's study , clearly shows that the african admixture found in modern north africans is very different from the one observed in guanches;
    as the guanches share more drift with europeans than they do with modern north africans.
    However, outgroup f3 statistics [19] suggest that the Guanches share more genetic drift with non-African test populations than with African test populations, including Northwest African populations of Berber origin (Data S1, sheet 2). This observation is inconsistent with the PCA and the uniparental genetic marker data, indicating that the outgroup f3 statistic may be misleading, possibly due to the complex history of recent sub-Saharan admixture events in North African populations [12, 21] and the sensitivity of the f3 estimator to such patterns. This issue seems to extend to other statistics based on allele frequency correlations such as the D statistic [19] since D(Outgroup, Guanches; North African, Sardinian/Anatolian farmer) consistently produces highly significant positive values of D (Z > 4), which would imply a closer relationship between Guanches and Sardinians and Anatolian farmers than between Guanches and North African populations
    Last edited by Nebro; 12-11-2019 at 05:31 AM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebro View Post
    TThis interested comment from the guanche's study , clearly shows that the african admixture found in modern north africans is very different from the one observed in guanches;
    as the guanches share more drift with europeans than they do with modern north africans.

    "However, outgroup f3 statistics [19] suggest that the Guanches share more genetic drift with non-African test populations than with African test populations, including Northwest African populations of Berber origin (Data S1, sheet 2). This observation is inconsistent with the PCA and the uniparental genetic marker data, indicating that the outgroup f3 statistic may be misleading, possibly due to the complex history of recent sub-Saharan admixture events in North African populations [12, 21] and the sensitivity of the f3 estimator to such patterns. This issue seems to extend to other statistics based on allele frequency correlations such as the D statistic [19] since D(Outgroup, Guanches; North African, Sardinian/Anatolian farmer) consistently produces highly significant positive values of D (Z > 4), which would imply a closer relationship between Guanches and Sardinians and Anatolian farmers than between Guanches and North African populations ".
    In fact regarding outgroup f3 statistics, this is the same for modern Northwest African populations, outgroup f3 statistics also show they share more genetic drift with non-African test populations than with other modern Northwest African populations….

    See table s2 in the Supplemental information of Ricardo Rodríguez-Varela study you quoted.



    As it can be seen, with stat f3 the populations closest to modern Algerians, Tunisians, Mozabites and Saharawi are also, like for the Guanches, Sardinians and Basques and not the other modern populations of North Africa. This is also the same with other measurements of genetic similarity.

    This is one of the reasons why the authors conclude "that these statistics are not suitable to identify the modern population most similar to Guanches in the sense that we intend it for this study"
    Last edited by E_M81_I3A; 12-11-2019 at 06:41 AM.

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  4. #13
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    And here are Guanches distances to modern populations (Global 25 scaled/Vahaduo) :






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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebro View Post
    This can't be accounted as affinity unless you add Iranic neolithic source or CHG.
    Those runs actually did include both IRN_N and CHG source samples; they just didn't pick anything non-negligible in those "rudimentary" runs.


    Source samples (scaled):
     
    KEN_LSA,-0.522448,0.044683,-0.010936,0.006137,0.004308,-0.006414,0.085309,-0.06692,0.076287,-0.06925,-0.011367,0.010491,-0.033003,0.000138,0.00855,-0.014983,0.021383,0.038513,-0.002137,-0.005253,-0.007612,-0.002968,0.002342,0.004699,-0.000718
    ETH_4500BP,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
    CHN_Tianyuan,-0.027318,-0.260991,-0.075424,0.071383,0.033545,-0.018407,-0.00799,-0.003,0.040291,0.021322,-0.006333,-0.005995,-0.003568,-0.00523,-0.000407,-0.000663,0.008084,0.002407,-0.001131,0.027263,-0.001747,0.008037,-0.008874,-0.010845,0.011256
    Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.088351,0.044123,0.110144,-0.032006,0.038487,0.00799,0.002308,-0.05788,-0.076721,-0.002761,-0.002398,0.000743,-0.021056,0.033387,0.01485,0.004955,-0.008235,-0.002263,0.015007,0.002121,0.003462,0.002958,0.023 256,0.002874
    Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
    Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
    Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
    Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
    Ju_hoan_North,-0.616466,0.0601194,0.0211942,0.028424,0.0025852,-0.0038486,0.2541404,-0.199192,0.0240112,0.007909,0.0032478,-0.0723558,-0.0255104,0.00867,0.0283928,-0.0321662,0.0461558,0.4102178,-0.1364076,0.003877,-0.0556018,-0.0051686,0.0126206,-0.0044826,0.0028978
    Mbuti,-0.6493608,0.0578852,0.0250785,0.038437,-0.001077,0.0054385,0.3631505,-0.291911,0.0193278,0.0323013,-0.0090938,0.2169692,0.1242805,3.45E-05,0.0080072,0.0017568,0.000717,-0.049567,0.015901,0.004471,0.0049288,-0.0020402,-0.002465,0.0057838,0.000389
    IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.037562,0.072103,-0.165556,-0.016473,-0.11756,0.01506,0.017861,-0.003231,-0.071583,-0.046835,0.003085,-0.003147,0.00669,0.000688,0.022122,0.053036,-0.011735,0.001014,0.014581,-0.035267,0.009358,-0.023741,-0.006655,-0.032896,0.019998
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0455292,0.0660095,-0.1518855,0.0026648,-0.1250232,0.0204982,0.0170972,-0.0017305,-0.0814005,-0.0579968,0.0004465,-0.001611,0.0072845,-0.0087735,0.0294512,0.0567152,-0.005248,0.0084882,0.007259,-0.037018,0.0075492,-0.0286258,-0.010322,-0.0404578,0.0265842
    ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111, 0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018 041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
    GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
    MAR_LN,0.021626,0.148267,0.003394,-0.095285,0.047393,-0.054384,-0.027731,0.008769,0.083855,0.054124,0.020136,0.001 798,0.002973,-0.028901,0.004343,0.009944,0.032726,-0.014062,-0.033938,-5.00E-04,-0.018343,-0.02201,0.011709,-0.009881,-0.004191
    MAR_EN,-0.1735805,0.0919055,-0.0258325,-0.083657,0.0283125,-0.0596825,-0.079316,0.021461,0.1500185,0.0043735,0.0222475,-0.0264515,0.075148,-0.0461725,0.069353,-0.03381,0.0171455,-0.05549,-0.1487635,0.0340785,-0.038245,-0.118212,0.0826995,-0.009941,0.021615
    MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534

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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by E_M81_I3A View Post
    In fact regarding outgroup f3 statistics, this is the same for modern Northwest African populations, outgroup f3 statistics also show they share more genetic drift with non-African test populations than with other modern Northwest African populations….

    See table s2 in the Supplemental information of Ricardo Rodríguez-Varela study you quoted.



    As it can be seen, with stat f3 the populations closest to modern Algerians, Tunisians, Mozabites and Saharawi are also, like for the Guanches, Sardinians and Basques and not the other modern populations of North Africa. This is also the same with other measurements of genetic similarity.

    This is one of the reasons why the authors conclude "that these statistics are not suitable to identify the modern population most similar to Guanches in the sense that we intend it for this study"
    I know that its not suitable to identify the modern population most similar, but its usefulness here , Is that it shows variation depending on the highly divergent sub-saharan source.
    I would have hoped to see the same test with all the populations tested same as the Guanches were used against most Eurasians in the data s1-sheet 2.
    as for the distances to modern and ancients berbers , this doesn't deny that modern berber's sub-saharan admixture is a result of a later sub-saharan event.

  9. #16
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    Are Guanches a good reference for Pre-Islamic expansion North Africans?

  10. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildofMud View Post
    Are Guanches a good reference for Pre-Islamic expansion North Africans?
    I would like to know this too. If I wish to model modern populations with ancient populations I like to use guanche ID 11 alone as a berber proxy as opposed to using Tunisian berber Chen. In deeper nmonte runs iberomarusians I think are useful if you want to verify whether yes or no modern populations have trace North African biogeographic ancestry or not

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  13. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildofMud View Post
    Are Guanches a good reference for Pre-Islamic expansion North Africans?
    They aren't a reference for all north Africans, they are part of a wider group.





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    Last edited by Amhas; 12-12-2019 at 10:29 PM.

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    How did Steppe ancestry arrive in the Canarias?


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