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Thread: How did pure South Cushitics gone extinct?

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    How did pure South Cushitics gone extinct?

    How did Tropical West African-like people took over SE Africa, and how did South Cushitic people got extinct? was it through war and conflict, or did they got bred out of existence like Neanderthals, or were their technology were not efficient compare to Niger-Congos?
    Last edited by Muslim-Arbegna; 11-16-2019 at 03:59 AM.

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    It was certaintly not through war or genocide postulated by people who mention Bantu expansion. Because of lack of evidence. There was certaintly a way of either migratory obsorption i reckon its was due to larger population and mass scale movements. That migration also pushed those groups overhelmed by the sheer numbers away into other territories (Primarily in the horn) while the few ones that remained were assimilated and absorbed.

    I believe this is how it played out and it makes more sense than some genocide. Especially considering how Southern Cushitic speaking groups who proceeded them were relatively more advanced in weaponry tools (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savann...oral_Neolithic and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azania ), it wouldn't make sense for relatively less armed/advanced bantus to be able to genocide these armed established populations.

    You can see how this number absorption and assimilation took place in modern times with the Yaaku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaaku_language and the there were only 3 Yaaku cushitic speakers until late. There was no force, genocide murder or war that brought that about. Then there is IraqW cushites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqw_people who managed to survive the mass wave. But they are substantially mixed between Nilotic and bantu speakers. With E1b1b haplogroup of 56% from their original cushitic ancestry and Haplogroup B of 22% from Nilotic and E1b1a haplogroup of 11% from Bantu.


    I think the best way to explain what occured is to visualize that you and your friends are 3 people and group of 100 people came in your direction, you would be gulfed up and overtaken by those 100 peoples if you remained or you would move away to somewhere else. I think this is what happened to the South Cushites when a mass wave of Niger-congo speakers headed their way.
    Last edited by Moderator; 09-23-2020 at 04:08 AM. Reason: Image removed in violation of ToS 3.12

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    @Mirix How were iron smelting Bantu farmers less advanced than Cushitic pastoralists?

    @OP The incoming Bantus absorbed the pastoralists and hunter-gatherers that they found in the region; we know this by analyzing the dna of both ancient and contemporary populations in the region. For example, the young boy from Deloraine farm (~1000 bp) is an early putative Bantu but already exhibits South Cushitic ancestry. Furthermore, most “savanna Bantus” in Kenya and Tanzania such as the Kikuyu, Sukuma, and Chagga - as well as Rwanda-Burundi - have varying degrees of significant South Cushitic ancestry.

    A similar process of expansion and assimilation/absorption took place in Southern Africa (Bantu + Khoi-Sandawe and Kx’a-Tuu) and Madagascar (Bantu + Austronesian).
    Last edited by gihanga.rwanda; 09-20-2020 at 12:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gihanga.rwanda View Post
    @Mirix How were iron smelting Bantu farmers less advanced than Cushitic pastoralists?

    @OP The incoming Bantus absorbed the pastoralists and hunter-gatherers that they found in the region; we know this by analyzing the dna of both ancient and contemporary populations in the region. For example, the young boy from Deloraine farm (~1000 bp) is an early putative Bantu but already exhibits South Cushitic ancestry. Furthermore, most “savanna Bantus” in Kenya and Tanzania such as the Kikuyu, Sukuma, and Chagga - as well as Rwanda-Burundi - have varying degrees of significant South Cushitic ancestry.

    A similar process of expansion and assimilation/absorption took place in Southern Africa (Bantu + Khoi-Sandawe and Kx’a-Tuu) and Madagascar (Bantu + Austronesian).
    They also made use of Iron metallurgy also called ''The Pastoral Iron age'' which was a continuation of pastoral economic activities with the use of ceramics, stone technology and iron usage. some even refer to them as metal using herders. I assume they were more sophisticated because of how they developed a austronomical-calendaric system https://science.sciencemag.org/content/200/4343/766 , seem to have an established state structure ,cities under ''Azania'' according greco-roman writers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gihanga.rwanda View Post
    Furthermore, most “savanna Bantus” in Kenya and Tanzania such as the Kikuyu, Sukuma, and Chagga - as well as Rwanda-Burundi - have varying degrees of significant South Cushitic ancestry.
    Isn't there a difference in Tanzania between the North and the South. I think only North Tanzania Bantus have substantial S-Cushitic (maybe also around Lake Tanganyika), because in Malawi and Mozambique it is very low and I assume South Tanzania must be similar or at least on a cline in this direction.

    The near total replacement of the Malawi hunter-gatherers is more surprising IMO. Little trace of them around Lake Malawi populations.

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  10. #6
    I'm not sure about east africa but an analogous situation for the southern african Khoi pastoralists and the bantu might shed light on this. There, the dynamic was due to the production strategies employed by the two populations. The bantu employed a diversified production strategy while the khoi, similar to cushites were specialised pastoralists. My conjecture is to consider a dynamic analogous of a stock portfolio, with the bantu having a more diversified portfolio while the khoi had a specialised portfolio.

    A bad year could take pastoralists up to a generation to recover from, whereas mixed farmers could recover in a couple of years. Additionally pastoralists were engaged in persistent warfare, raiding for cattle in which many groups were impoverished. Their enemies were other khoi tribes not the bantu, with whom they did not compete. Some impoverished khoi became hunter gatherers again while some neighboring bantu communities formed bonds with the bantu. Entire tribes of khoi who had lost their cattle would become Xhosa clans by inventing a genealogy linking them to wider Xhosa descent and submitting to a big chief. Once this happened, social and cultural barriers to gene flow disappeared and in a few generations complete assimilation occured.

    This dynamic was witnessed by a european explorer within historical times. It is conjecture to project this dynamic to east africa, but I find it interesting that the remaining southern cushites are not pastoralists but mixed agricuturalists. Similarly, east africa has high levels of admixture comparable to southern africa. Cultural symbiosis and assimilation today in east africa is exemplified by the relations between Rendille and Samburu, although both populations are pastoralist but in different niches.

    I always wonder how first contact between two different peoples happens and find it fascinating how mechanisms of intercourse occur. Extensive gene flow must be explained by some underlying dynamic. Naive populations don't mate.
    Last edited by Brwn_trd; 09-20-2020 at 03:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirix View Post
    They also made use of Iron metallurgy also called ''The Pastoral Iron age'' which was a continuation of pastoral economic activities with the use of ceramics, stone technology and iron usage. some even refer to them as metal using herders. I assume they were more sophisticated because of how they developed a austronomical-calendaric system https://science.sciencemag.org/content/200/4343/766 , seem to have an established state structure ,cities under ''Azania'' according greco-roman writers.
    I am not very well versed in this subject area but I suspect that South Cushitic communities adopted Iron Age technology from incoming Nilotic and Bantu migrants. We now know that Iron Age pastoralists in the region had elevated levels of Dinka-related ancestry in comparison to their predecessors represented by the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic and Elmenteitan cultures. These same Iron Age pastoralists lived in close proximity to early Bantu speakers related to groups like the Delomaine farmer community. I definitely haven’t seen any credible evidence that South Cushitic communities had a more “advanced” material culture than their Nilotic or Bantu contemporaries. However, we can argue that Bantus had more of a advantage due to their early adoption of agriculture, which enabled them to maintain higher population sizes, develop advanced sedentary societies, and become the demographic majority in the region within a few centuries.

    I don’t think the author of the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea and other seafarers who navigated the coast of what is now Kenya and Tanzania encountered a coherent culture. The region of “Azania” probably consisted of numerous settlements - marketplaces, villages, and trading posts (they definitely weren’t full fledge city states at that point in time) - inhabited by a variety of communities, including East/South Cushitic and Bantu speakers and eastern/southern hunter-gatherers. I am confident that the people of Rhapta were early Bantus since they were apparently “tillers of the land” or farmers. Putative Bantu speakers had already begun to settle along the East African coast as far north as central Kenya by the BC/AD turnover and their associated material culture can be found on offshore islands (e.g. Koma, Kwale, Mafia, Unguja, etc.) by the first half of the first millennium AD. It wasn’t until ~500 AD that we begin to see the emergence of true “metropolises” in this part of Africa, which coincides with the spread of proto-Sabaki speakers and related groups speaking NE Coastal Bantu dialects and the emergence of an early “Swahili” urbanite culture. I don’t doubt that South Cushitic speakers were present along the coast but I don’t think they were particularly numerous. If you subtract non-African admixture, Swahili and other Sabaki speakers are more West African shifted then their Bantu counterparts around the Great Lakes and along the Rift Valley who have elevated South Cushitic and/or Nilotic ancestry.

    I don’t know enough about this austronomical-calendaric system to comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NetNomad View Post
    Isn't there a difference in Tanzania between the North and the South. I think only North Tanzania Bantus have substantial S-Cushitic (maybe also around Lake Tanganyika), because in Malawi and Mozambique it is very low and I assume South Tanzania must be similar or at least on a cline in this direction.

    The near total replacement of the Malawi hunter-gatherers is more surprising IMO. Little trace of them around Lake Malawi populations.
    You might be right but I am not sure. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a positive correlation between elevated South Cushitic ancestry in SE Africa and the location of Pastoral Neolithic and Iron Age sites (see map below). The Tutsi/Hima and related groups would be the only exception to this rule; the Mbugu might be another exception but they could be the result of Bantu/East Cushitic admixture.

    Last edited by gihanga.rwanda; 09-20-2020 at 06:36 PM.

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    Why didn't farming spread to this region before?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    Why didn't farming spread to this region before?
    I think South Cushites left the Horn prior to the Horn developing agriculture.

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