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Thread: How did pure South Cushitics gone extinct?

  1. #31
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    It’s an old study but Tishkoff et al. 2009 included a lot of samples from Bantu speaking groups from Tanzania; it’s still the most comprehensive study on extant populations in Sub-Saharan Africa, including in Tanzania. You might need to create an AAAS account, but you can access the revised study at the following link.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte.../1035.abstract

    The following Bantu tribes from Tanzania were included in the study; Turu, Sukuma, Gogo, Mbugwe, Rangi, Sambaa, Pare, and Mbugu. The latter speaks a mixed Bantu/Cushitic language. With the exception of the Sukumu who can be found south of Lake Victoria, all of the other tribes are from north/central Tanzania and exhibit pretty significant Cushitic-related ancestry comparable to the Kikuyu.

    The north/central Tanzanian Bantus are on average 20-31.2% Cushitic (peaks in the Iraqw and East Cushitic speakers) and 7.7-23.2% Sandawe (a composite cluster that peaks in the group that lended its name and reflects admixed hunter-gatherer/Cushitic/Bantu ancestry). The Sukuma were modeled as 12.5% Cushitic and 10.6% Sandawe, and the Mbugu as 60.5% Cushitic and 3.4% Sandawe. The remaining share of ancestry in all of these groups is overwhelmingly or exclusively Bantu-related. In comparison, Kikuyu were modeled as 35.6% Cushitic, 6.2% Sandawe, and 8.8% Nilotic-related.

    It’s not cut and dry but I suspect that Cushitic-related ancestry is most significant (+10%) among Bantu speakers in Groups E and F (according to Guthrie’s classification) who inhabit the same area that was once occupied by Neolithic and Iron Age pastoralists. You have some exceptions like the Tutsi-Hima (Group J) or the Gogo (Group G) but this seems to be the general rule from what I can tell. Bantu speakers in other East African groups tend to have a lot less or no Cushitic ancestry from what I’ve seen: Group J (e.g. Baganda, Luhya), Group G (e.g. Swahili), and Group P (e.g. Makhuwa).

    Last edited by gihanga.rwanda; 09-25-2020 at 09:25 PM.

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  3. #32
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    Mbugus are interesting because they not only have substantial Cushitic admixture but atleast one linguist has suggested that their language has an East Cushitic substratum rather than a South Cushitic one.Has there been any Y-DNA studies or results from the Mbugu? It would be very interesting if they had E-V32 (especially E-Z813).

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    Mbugus are interesting because they not only have substantial Cushitic admixture but atleast one linguist has suggested that their language has an East Cushitic substratum rather than a South Cushitic one.Has there been any Y-DNA studies or results from the Mbugu? It would be very interesting if they had E-V32 (especially E-Z813).
    The East Cushitic origins of the Mbugu seems pretty convincing from a linguistic standpoint. I know that the majority of the yDNA lineages among the Mbugu are E-M215 (followed by E-M2), but I am not sure about the subclades. I suspect that the Mbugu will carry both E-V32 and E-M293 since there is also some linguistic and cultural evidence that their East Cushitic ancestors met and interacted with South Cushitic groups like the Iraqw before they married into Bantu clans.
    Last edited by gihanga.rwanda; 09-25-2020 at 10:11 PM.

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gihanga.rwanda View Post
    It’s an old study but Tishkoff et al. 2009 included a lot of samples from Bantu speaking groups from Tanzania; it’s still the most comprehensive study on extant populations in Sub-Saharan Africa, including in Tanzania. You might need to create an AAAS account, but you can access the revised study at the following link.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte.../1035.abstract

    The following Bantu tribes from Tanzania were included in the study; Turu, Sukuma, Gogo, Mbugwe, Rangi, Sambaa, Pare, and Mbugu. The latter speaks a mixed Bantu/Cushitic language. With the exception of the Sukumu who can be found south of Lake Victoria, all of the other tribes are from north/central Tanzania and exhibit pretty significant Cushitic-related ancestry comparable to the Kikuyu.

    The north/central Tanzanian Bantus are on average 20-31.2% Cushitic (peaks in the Iraqw and East Cushitic speakers) and 7.7-23.2% Sandawe (a composite cluster that peaks in the group that lended its name and reflects admixed hunter-gatherer/Cushitic/Bantu ancestry). The Sukuma were modeled as 12.5% Cushitic and 10.6% Sandawe, and the Mbugu as 60.5% Cushitic and 3.4% Sandawe. The remaining share of ancestry in all of these groups is overwhelmingly or exclusively Bantu-related. In comparison, Kikuyu were modeled as 35.6% Cushitic, 6.2% Sandawe, and 8.8% Nilotic-related.

    It’s not cut and dry but I suspect that Cushitic-related ancestry is most significant (+10%) among Bantu speakers in Groups E and F (according to Guthrie’s classification) who inhabit the same area that was once occupied by Neolithic and Iron Age pastoralists. You have some exceptions like the Tutsi-Hima (Group J) or the Gogo (Group G) but this seems to be the general rule from what I can tell. Bantu speakers in other East African groups tend to have a lot less or no Cushitic ancestry from what I’ve seen: Group J (e.g. Baganda, Luhya), Group G (e.g. Swahili), and Group P (e.g. Makhuwa).

    Yeah Tishkoff's work is still up there for me as being the benchmark in many ways. You can find the same Tazanian groups in both supervised+unsupervised at certain Ks ran in this paper/supplements: Genetic variation reveals large-scale population expansion and migration during the expansion of Bantu-speaking peoples

    Do you know the logic behind Guthrie's alphabet classification? I get why Cameroon is A, Gabon B etc, but why Uganda/West Kenya come under J confuses me abit - is it because these zone J peoples are likely more recent migrants from a western dispersal point?

    Also for everyone to know, the Ndau, Bitonga , Changana and Ronga samples more so Zimbabwean/South African/Limpopo/Shona/Tsonga peoples so we can profile them as typical Southern type Bantu people.
    Last edited by ThaYamamoto; 09-25-2020 at 10:44 PM. Reason: wrong thread for this ideally should be in the g25

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaYamamoto View Post
    One of the Makhuwa Mozambicans has definite discernible Cushitic ancestry, as does one Chopi Mozambican individual. You can see Kenya Stone Age is pretty significant throughout, but I'm concerned about what conclusions can be drawn from Ken_LSA and even Dinka when cross comparing Africans due to their positions on the G25 PCA...it could be that LSA compensates for Nilotic+HG ancestral streams on the G25 or however nMonte+G25 deals with this compensation. Even Dinka are barely differentiated from Niger-Congo pops. on there. It seems supervised structure runs like in Tishkoff's original paper might still be the benchmark. Maybe others can shed light on this but after examining the PCAs my confidence in the tool for African cross-comparison is definitely lower than before.


    edit: think its actually southern European ancestry.
    Yep, I noticed there was no Levant Natufian or Levant PPNC/PPNB pull and only a mix of other West Eurasian elements, so I was pretty sure that even if there even was real West Eurasian admixture it was very weak and not like the Cushitic signal, especially given it's already an outlier.
    Also wouldn't it make sense to use the latest Malawi HG reference too for Mozambique?
    Last edited by Granary; 09-26-2020 at 07:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    Yep, I noticed there was no Levant Natufian or Levant PPNC/PPNB pull and only a mix of other West Eurasian elements, so I was pretty sure that even if there even was real West Eurasian admixture it was very weak and not like the Cushitic signal, especially given it's already an outlier.
    Also wouldn't it make sense to use the latest Malawi HG reference too for Mozambique?
    Lol yeah my bad I only realised when I was checking unscaled distances to myself and that individual was my closest African distal individual. I'm not sure if Mozambicans have the Malawi HG ancestry [does anyone? Skoglund had them as being completely wiped out right?] and seems like almost half of these samples are actually branches of Shona/Nguni/Tsonga groups but like I said I can't remember if any moderns were found to harbor Malawi HG.

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    With regards to the southern part of Africa, Khoi-San first mixed with Cushites and latter Bantu mixed with the product of the former two. And, later, a second wave of Bantu came in and I think diluted that Cushitic-Khoisan admixture initial Bantu groups had.

    Samples from the Iron Age in east Africa may give a clue to what happened.
    We have individuals that are 100% Cushitic, others EA-hunter-gatherers. Even, one sample(Kakapel 900BP) is ~90% Nilotic.
    This means that ”pure" East African hunter-gatherers, Bantus, Nilotes and Cushites coexisted/persisted till the Iron Age.
    This begs the question as under what circumstances led to the “extinction” of Cushitics groups?

    Also, in the inter-lacustrine region(Uganda-Rwanda-Burundi-Tanzania-Congo) things are weird there. Bantu speaking groups with high Cushitic admixture seem to have dominated the region. I’ve noticed, except for Buganda and maybe Bunyoro(ruling class of Luo origin)the ruling class of all those kingdoms are heavily Cushitic admixed.
    Last edited by Espoir; 09-28-2020 at 08:16 AM.

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    Clearly this happened in the Iron Age, but I donít know what processes led to this
    Screenshot 2020-09-27 at 2.49.26 PM.png
    Last edited by Espoir; 09-27-2020 at 09:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gihanga.rwanda View Post
    It’s an old study but Tishkoff et al. 2009 included a lot of samples from Bantu speaking groups from Tanzania; it’s still the most comprehensive study on extant populations in Sub-Saharan Africa, including in Tanzania. You might need to create an AAAS account, but you can access the revised study at the following link.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte.../1035.abstract

    The following Bantu tribes from Tanzania were included in the study; Turu, Sukuma, Gogo, Mbugwe, Rangi, Sambaa, Pare, and Mbugu. The latter speaks a mixed Bantu/Cushitic language. With the exception of the Sukumu who can be found south of Lake Victoria, all of the other tribes are from north/central Tanzania and exhibit pretty significant Cushitic-related ancestry comparable to the Kikuyu.

    The north/central Tanzanian Bantus are on average 20-31.2% Cushitic (peaks in the Iraqw and East Cushitic speakers) and 7.7-23.2% Sandawe (a composite cluster that peaks in the group that lended its name and reflects admixed hunter-gatherer/Cushitic/Bantu ancestry). The Sukuma were modeled as 12.5% Cushitic and 10.6% Sandawe, and the Mbugu as 60.5% Cushitic and 3.4% Sandawe. The remaining share of ancestry in all of these groups is overwhelmingly or exclusively Bantu-related. In comparison, Kikuyu were modeled as 35.6% Cushitic, 6.2% Sandawe, and 8.8% Nilotic-related.

    It’s not cut and dry but I suspect that Cushitic-related ancestry is most significant (+10%) among Bantu speakers in Groups E and F (according to Guthrie’s classification) who inhabit the same area that was once occupied by Neolithic and Iron Age pastoralists. You have some exceptions like the Tutsi-Hima (Group J) or the Gogo (Group G) but this seems to be the general rule from what I can tell. Bantu speakers in other East African groups tend to have a lot less or no Cushitic ancestry from what I’ve seen: Group J (e.g. Baganda, Luhya), Group G (e.g. Swahili), and Group P (e.g. Makhuwa).

    Interesting, Im guessing Southern Tanzanian tribes have very little to no Cushitic ancestry? Assuming that the Makhuwa and Yao (there seem to be a group of them in Tanzania in the map) represent Southern Tanzanian Bantus well...

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    In oral history you can read that the new elites took the Bachwezi women as their wives and a lot of the new elites took in a lot of Chwezi culture through these women.

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