Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 45

Thread: How did pure South Cushitics gone extinct?

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    How did pure South Cushitics gone extinct?

    How did Tropical West African-like people took over SE Africa, and how did South Cushitic people got extinct? was it through war and conflict, or did they got bred out of existence like Neanderthals, or were their technology were not efficient compare to Niger-Congos?
    Last edited by Muslim-Arbegna; 11-16-2019 at 03:59 AM.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Muslim-Arbegna For This Useful Post:

     Brwn_trd (09-20-2020)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    51
    Sex

    Djibouti Ethiopia Somalia Egypt Eritrea Sudan
    It was certaintly not through war or genocide postulated by people who mention Bantu expansion. Because of lack of evidence. There was certaintly a way of either migratory obsorption i reckon its was due to larger population and mass scale movements. That migration also pushed those groups overhelmed by the sheer numbers away into other territories (Primarily in the horn) while the few ones that remained were assimilated and absorbed.

    I believe this is how it played out and it makes more sense than some genocide. Especially considering how Southern Cushitic speaking groups who proceeded them were relatively more advanced in weaponry tools (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savann...oral_Neolithic and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azania ), it wouldn't make sense for relatively less armed/advanced bantus to be able to genocide these armed established populations.

    You can see how this number absorption and assimilation took place in modern times with the Yaaku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaaku_language and the there were only 3 Yaaku cushitic speakers until late. There was no force, genocide murder or war that brought that about. Then there is IraqW cushites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqw_people who managed to survive the mass wave. But they are substantially mixed between Nilotic and bantu speakers. With E1b1b haplogroup of 56% from their original cushitic ancestry and Haplogroup B of 22% from Nilotic and E1b1a haplogroup of 11% from Bantu.


    I think the best way to explain what occured is to visualize that you and your friends are 3 people and group of 100 people came in your direction, you would be gulfed up and overtaken by those 100 peoples if you remained or you would move away to somewhere else. I think this is what happened to the South Cushites when a mass wave of Niger-congo speakers headed their way.
    Last edited by Moderator; 09-23-2020 at 04:08 AM. Reason: Image removed in violation of ToS 3.12

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Mirix For This Useful Post:

     Brwn_trd (09-20-2020)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    189
    Sex

    @Mirix How were iron smelting Bantu farmers less advanced than Cushitic pastoralists?

    @OP The incoming Bantus absorbed the pastoralists and hunter-gatherers that they found in the region; we know this by analyzing the dna of both ancient and contemporary populations in the region. For example, the young boy from Deloraine farm (~1000 bp) is an early putative Bantu but already exhibits South Cushitic ancestry. Furthermore, most “savanna Bantus” in Kenya and Tanzania such as the Kikuyu, Sukuma, and Chagga - as well as Rwanda-Burundi - have varying degrees of significant South Cushitic ancestry.

    A similar process of expansion and assimilation/absorption took place in Southern Africa (Bantu + Khoi-Sandawe and Kx’a-Tuu) and Madagascar (Bantu + Austronesian).
    Last edited by gihanga.rwanda; 09-20-2020 at 12:30 PM.

  6. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to gihanga.rwanda For This Useful Post:

     beyoku (10-07-2020),  Brwn_trd (09-20-2020),  GabrielZelalem (09-22-2020),  loxias (09-24-2020),  Megalophias (09-21-2020),  NetNomad (09-20-2020)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    51
    Sex

    Djibouti Ethiopia Somalia Egypt Eritrea Sudan
    Quote Originally Posted by gihanga.rwanda View Post
    @Mirix How were iron smelting Bantu farmers less advanced than Cushitic pastoralists?

    @OP The incoming Bantus absorbed the pastoralists and hunter-gatherers that they found in the region; we know this by analyzing the dna of both ancient and contemporary populations in the region. For example, the young boy from Deloraine farm (~1000 bp) is an early putative Bantu but already exhibits South Cushitic ancestry. Furthermore, most “savanna Bantus” in Kenya and Tanzania such as the Kikuyu, Sukuma, and Chagga - as well as Rwanda-Burundi - have varying degrees of significant South Cushitic ancestry.

    A similar process of expansion and assimilation/absorption took place in Southern Africa (Bantu + Khoi-Sandawe and Kx’a-Tuu) and Madagascar (Bantu + Austronesian).
    They also made use of Iron metallurgy also called ''The Pastoral Iron age'' which was a continuation of pastoral economic activities with the use of ceramics, stone technology and iron usage. some even refer to them as metal using herders. I assume they were more sophisticated because of how they developed a austronomical-calendaric system https://science.sciencemag.org/content/200/4343/766 , seem to have an established state structure ,cities under ''Azania'' according greco-roman writers.

  8. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    189
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirix View Post
    They also made use of Iron metallurgy also called ''The Pastoral Iron age'' which was a continuation of pastoral economic activities with the use of ceramics, stone technology and iron usage. some even refer to them as metal using herders. I assume they were more sophisticated because of how they developed a austronomical-calendaric system https://science.sciencemag.org/content/200/4343/766 , seem to have an established state structure ,cities under ''Azania'' according greco-roman writers.
    I am not very well versed in this subject area but I suspect that South Cushitic communities adopted Iron Age technology from incoming Nilotic and Bantu migrants. We now know that Iron Age pastoralists in the region had elevated levels of Dinka-related ancestry in comparison to their predecessors represented by the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic and Elmenteitan cultures. These same Iron Age pastoralists lived in close proximity to early Bantu speakers related to groups like the Delomaine farmer community. I definitely haven’t seen any credible evidence that South Cushitic communities had a more “advanced” material culture than their Nilotic or Bantu contemporaries. However, we can argue that Bantus had more of a advantage due to their early adoption of agriculture, which enabled them to maintain higher population sizes, develop advanced sedentary societies, and become the demographic majority in the region within a few centuries.

    I don’t think the author of the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea and other seafarers who navigated the coast of what is now Kenya and Tanzania encountered a coherent culture. The region of “Azania” probably consisted of numerous settlements - marketplaces, villages, and trading posts (they definitely weren’t full fledge city states at that point in time) - inhabited by a variety of communities, including East/South Cushitic and Bantu speakers and eastern/southern hunter-gatherers. I am confident that the people of Rhapta were early Bantus since they were apparently “tillers of the land” or farmers. Putative Bantu speakers had already begun to settle along the East African coast as far north as central Kenya by the BC/AD turnover and their associated material culture can be found on offshore islands (e.g. Koma, Kwale, Mafia, Unguja, etc.) by the first half of the first millennium AD. It wasn’t until ~500 AD that we begin to see the emergence of true “metropolises” in this part of Africa, which coincides with the spread of proto-Sabaki speakers and related groups speaking NE Coastal Bantu dialects and the emergence of an early “Swahili” urbanite culture. I don’t doubt that South Cushitic speakers were present along the coast but I don’t think they were particularly numerous. If you subtract non-African admixture, Swahili and other Sabaki speakers are more West African shifted then their Bantu counterparts around the Great Lakes and along the Rift Valley who have elevated South Cushitic and/or Nilotic ancestry.

    I don’t know enough about this austronomical-calendaric system to comment.

  9. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to gihanga.rwanda For This Useful Post:

     loxias (09-24-2020),  Megalophias (09-21-2020),  Pedro Ruben (09-21-2020),  pgbk87 (09-25-2020)

  10. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    51
    Sex

    Djibouti Ethiopia Somalia Egypt Eritrea Sudan
    Quote Originally Posted by gihanga.rwanda View Post
    I am not very well versed in this subject area but I suspect that South Cushitic communities adopted Iron Age technology from incoming Nilotic and Bantu migrants. We now know that Iron Age pastoralists in the region had elevated levels of Dinka-related ancestry in comparison to their predecessors represented by the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic and Elmenteitan cultures. These same Iron Age pastoralists lived in close proximity to early Bantu speakers related to groups like the Delomaine farmer community. I definitely haven’t seen any credible evidence that South Cushitic communities had a more “advanced” material culture than their Nilotic or Bantu contemporaries. However, we can argue that Bantus had more of a advantage due to their early adoption of agriculture, which enabled them to maintain higher population sizes and become the demographic majority in the region within a few centuries.
    You are right. I read up a bit about it . The Bantus (descended from the Iron Age/IA culture makers) and the Nilotes (descended from the Pastoral Iron Age/PIA people). I assumed Iron Age Pastoraliasts referred to South Cushitics. This gradual population replacement of that region’s early Cushitic pastoralists is also reflected in the osteological record https://pascal-francis.inist.fr/viba...SCAL7650006098

    But yeah i think my initial hypothesis still stands correct it was more or less a demographic replacement by a mass wave of populations size and absorption that happened that way gradually. It wasn't anything related to war or direct genocide as it seems.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Mirix For This Useful Post:

     gihanga.rwanda (09-21-2020)

  12. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    189
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirix View Post
    You are right. I read up a bit about it . The Bantus (descended from the Iron Age/IA culture makers) and the Nilotes (descended from the Pastoral Iron Age/PIA people). I assumed Iron Age Pastoraliasts referred to South Cushitics. This gradual population replacement of that region’s early Cushitic pastoralists is also reflected in the osteological record https://pascal-francis.inist.fr/viba...SCAL7650006098

    But yeah i think my initial hypothesis still stands correct it was more or less a demographic replacement by a mass wave of populations size and absorption that happened that way gradually. It wasn't anything related to war or direct genocide as it seems.
    Thanks for sharing the link to the osteological record paper!

    Yes it sounds like we’re on the same page. However, it’s worth clarifying that many of the Iron Age pastoralists that were sequenced recently had significant and in some cases predominant South Cushitic-related ancestry. This suggests that early Nilotic speakers from the vicinity of South Sudan quickly absorbed South Cushitic communities as they expanded south through the Great Lakes region and nearby savannas; I suspect that groups like Kalenjin, Datooga, and possibly even Tutsi-Hima descend from these groups. The ancestors of the Maasai, Samburu, Turkana, and other Eastern Nilotic speakers are experiencing a very similar process up to this day (re: Samburu and Rendille; Maasai and Iraqw).

  13. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to gihanga.rwanda For This Useful Post:

     Atlas (09-22-2020),  drobbah (09-22-2020),  Kulin (09-22-2020),  loxias (09-24-2020),  Mirix (09-22-2020)

  14. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    345
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by gihanga.rwanda View Post
    Furthermore, most “savanna Bantus” in Kenya and Tanzania such as the Kikuyu, Sukuma, and Chagga - as well as Rwanda-Burundi - have varying degrees of significant South Cushitic ancestry.
    Isn't there a difference in Tanzania between the North and the South. I think only North Tanzania Bantus have substantial S-Cushitic (maybe also around Lake Tanganyika), because in Malawi and Mozambique it is very low and I assume South Tanzania must be similar or at least on a cline in this direction.

    The near total replacement of the Malawi hunter-gatherers is more surprising IMO. Little trace of them around Lake Malawi populations.

  15. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to NetNomad For This Useful Post:

     Brwn_trd (09-20-2020),  gihanga.rwanda (09-20-2020),  loxias (09-24-2020)

  16. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    189
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by NetNomad View Post
    Isn't there a difference in Tanzania between the North and the South. I think only North Tanzania Bantus have substantial S-Cushitic (maybe also around Lake Tanganyika), because in Malawi and Mozambique it is very low and I assume South Tanzania must be similar or at least on a cline in this direction.

    The near total replacement of the Malawi hunter-gatherers is more surprising IMO. Little trace of them around Lake Malawi populations.
    You might be right but I am not sure. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a positive correlation between elevated South Cushitic ancestry in SE Africa and the location of Pastoral Neolithic and Iron Age sites (see map below). The Tutsi/Hima and related groups would be the only exception to this rule; the Mbugu might be another exception but they could be the result of Bantu/East Cushitic admixture.

    Last edited by gihanga.rwanda; 09-20-2020 at 06:36 PM.

  17. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to gihanga.rwanda For This Useful Post:

     loxias (09-24-2020),  NetNomad (09-20-2020),  Pedro Ruben (09-21-2020),  pgbk87 (09-25-2020)

  18. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    302
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by NetNomad View Post
    Isn't there a difference in Tanzania between the North and the South. I think only North Tanzania Bantus have substantial S-Cushitic (maybe also around Lake Tanganyika), because in Malawi and Mozambique it is very low and I assume South Tanzania must be similar or at least on a cline in this direction.
    Can anyone confirm this? How far does Cushitic admixture go in modern Bantus and Nilotes in East Africa? I know of course that the Hadza, Sandawe, Maasai and Tutsi have some Cushitic admixture, but what about others?

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-01-2019, 03:59 AM
  2. Only genetically pure bison are found in Utah
    By Chad Rohlfsen in forum Fauna
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-31-2018, 01:54 PM
  3. Nearly Pure W1
    By ChristieMoore3 in forum W
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-18-2017, 08:11 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •