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Thread: How did pure South Cushitics gone extinct?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    I think South Cushites left the Horn prior to the Horn developing agriculture.
    Didn't Cushites have agriculture in the Ethiopian highlands during the Eurasian Bronze Age?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    Didn't Cushites have agriculture in the Ethiopian highlands during the Eurasian Bronze Age?
    The South Cushites were in SE Africa when Horners learned to cultivate teff,millet and sorghum I think.

    I remember even reading some colonial era sources that stated the agriculture clans of Somaliland/Eastern Ethiopia and Southern Somalia had different agricultural practices/tools.The former were farming similar to Highlanders of Ethiopia and the south were farming similar to the Bantus possible due to the large Bantu population of the South plus the ethnic Somali nomads by far were not interested in farming.If fertile South Somalia didn't receive the Ethiopian Agriculture package than I wouldn't expect the Southern Cushites either

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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    The South Cushites were in SE Africa when Horners learned to cultivate teff,millet and sorghum I think.

    I remember even reading some colonial era sources that stated the agriculture clans of Somaliland/Eastern Ethiopia and Southern Somalia had different agricultural practices/tools.The former were farming similar to Highlanders of Ethiopia and the south were farming similar to the Bantus possible due to the large Bantu population of the South plus the ethnic Somali nomads by far were not interested in farming.If fertile South Somalia didn't receive the Ethiopian Agriculture package than I wouldn't expect the Southern Cushites either
    If Southern Somalia was fertile and not exploited, how come Bantus didn't end up expanding there? Just historical circumstances?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gihanga.rwanda View Post
    I am not very well versed in this subject area but I suspect that South Cushitic communities adopted Iron Age technology from incoming Nilotic and Bantu migrants. We now know that Iron Age pastoralists in the region had elevated levels of Dinka-related ancestry in comparison to their predecessors represented by the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic and Elmenteitan cultures. These same Iron Age pastoralists lived in close proximity to early Bantu speakers related to groups like the Delomaine farmer community. I definitely havenít seen any credible evidence that South Cushitic communities had a more ďadvancedĒ material culture than their Nilotic or Bantu contemporaries. However, we can argue that Bantus had more of a advantage due to their early adoption of agriculture, which enabled them to maintain higher population sizes and become the demographic majority in the region within a few centuries.
    You are right. I read up a bit about it . The Bantus (descended from the Iron Age/IA culture makers) and the Nilotes (descended from the Pastoral Iron Age/PIA people). I assumed Iron Age Pastoraliasts referred to South Cushitics. This gradual population replacement of that regionís early Cushitic pastoralists is also reflected in the osteological record https://pascal-francis.inist.fr/viba...SCAL7650006098

    But yeah i think my initial hypothesis still stands correct it was more or less a demographic replacement by a mass wave of populations size and absorption that happened that way gradually. It wasn't anything related to war or direct genocide as it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirix View Post
    You are right. I read up a bit about it . The Bantus (descended from the Iron Age/IA culture makers) and the Nilotes (descended from the Pastoral Iron Age/PIA people). I assumed Iron Age Pastoraliasts referred to South Cushitics. This gradual population replacement of that region’s early Cushitic pastoralists is also reflected in the osteological record https://pascal-francis.inist.fr/viba...SCAL7650006098

    But yeah i think my initial hypothesis still stands correct it was more or less a demographic replacement by a mass wave of populations size and absorption that happened that way gradually. It wasn't anything related to war or direct genocide as it seems.
    Thanks for sharing the link to the osteological record paper!

    Yes it sounds like we’re on the same page. However, it’s worth clarifying that many of the Iron Age pastoralists that were sequenced recently had significant and in some cases predominant South Cushitic-related ancestry. This suggests that early Nilotic speakers from the vicinity of South Sudan quickly absorbed South Cushitic communities as they expanded south through the Great Lakes region and nearby savannas; I suspect that groups like Kalenjin, Datooga, and possibly even Tutsi-Hima descend from these groups. The ancestors of the Maasai, Samburu, Turkana, and other Eastern Nilotic speakers are experiencing a very similar process up to this day (re: Samburu and Rendille; Maasai and Iraqw).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    If Southern Somalia was fertile and not exploited, how come Bantus didn't end up expanding there? Just historical circumstances?
    South Somalia had Ethnic Somalis as agro-pastorialists and farmers along the fertile plains with Rahanweyn being the primary ones. They are mainly a conglomorate of early northern clans that settled there, indicated by their name. The earliest of them probably settled there in 2nd century BC or earlier. So it wasn't unexploited in general per say. I would assume there was certain areas people didn't settle or expand to because of the tetze fly that lives along southern fertile regions in Somalia.

    Colonial sources are often outdated and riddled with erroneous conclusion and we have more information now. So i would be cautious citing them. Peoples occupations reflected on their environment/soil as @Awale carefully explained in another thread https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17953-The-territories-of-the-Somali-clans-and-their-historic-migrations-and-wanderings/page5 and that Ethnic Somalis would take up other occupations or substinence activities whenever possible, the idea they were not interested in farming is not wholly correct.

    As for the farming practices in Southern Somalia , what i do know is that they did infact cultivate similar crops to the ones in the northern/eastern regions in cultivating Durra or bicolor Sorghum .Since Al-Idrisi stated in 1154 that the Berbers (Somalis) in the Lower Shabeelle Valley, Mugdisho area, were Durra farmers. As it seems the early medieval Muslim records hold that the Durra cultivation was part of the lifestyle in the Horn of Africa and it was a native crop to the region.

    Infact the lowlands of North East Africa such as Somalia are regarded to be the original center of the bicolor Sorghum, from which the crop was introduced to the rest of the continent, and to the other world through Middle East and Indo-Pakistan around 3,500 BP.20.
    Last edited by Mirix; 09-22-2020 at 12:58 AM.

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  11. #17
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    Philosophically the answer is that every act of creation is an act of destruction. Calling any group pure is just saying that the population underwent homogenization followed by shared drift. A group becoming more heterogenous (or diverse) is just as easy. In this particular case I don't think there is any dramatic war story to be found. Admixture, absorption, displacement, population contraction, etc.

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  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    If Southern Somalia was fertile and not exploited, how come Bantus didn't end up expanding there? Just historical circumstances?
    Northeast Kenya is kind of arid and acted as a barrier for tropical farmers to continue the same lifestyle.

    Also, it was already populated by agricultural groups. Same reason why Bantu farmers didn't expand into Northern Uganda or Southern South Sudan (arid Northwest Kenya barrier).

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    Quote Originally Posted by NetNomad View Post
    Northeast Kenya is kind of arid and acted as a barrier for tropical farmers to continue the same lifestyle.

    Also, it was already populated by agricultural groups. Same reason why Bantu farmers didn't expand into Northern Uganda or Southern South Sudan (arid Northwest Kenya barrier).
    Were the crops already used by Cushites in the Horn not good for Western Kenya and Tanzania?
    I'm trying to understand what exactly gave a demographic edge to the Bantus in respect to the local Cushites that the Bantus didn't have against "Nilo-Saharans" in non-arid North Uganda.
    Last edited by Granary; 09-22-2020 at 06:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NetNomad View Post
    Isn't there a difference in Tanzania between the North and the South. I think only North Tanzania Bantus have substantial S-Cushitic (maybe also around Lake Tanganyika), because in Malawi and Mozambique it is very low and I assume South Tanzania must be similar or at least on a cline in this direction.
    Can anyone confirm this? How far does Cushitic admixture go in modern Bantus and Nilotes in East Africa? I know of course that the Hadza, Sandawe, Maasai and Tutsi have some Cushitic admixture, but what about others?

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