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Thread: Modeling of Iberian populations on Global25. Could these be improved?

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    Modeling of Iberian populations on Global25. Could these be improved?

    I also get a Levantine component not captured by North African for some of these populations.

    Target: Spanish_Canarias
    Distance: 1.4874% / 0.01487431
    Aggregated
    43.8 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    27.0 Moroccan_North
    15.2 DEU_MA_ACD
    14.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o

    Target: Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    Distance: 1.2980% / 0.01297956
    Aggregated
    41.2 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    26.8 DEU_MA_ACD
    14.0 Moroccan_North
    12.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    5.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    0.8 Levant_Canaanite_MBA

    Target: Spanish_Extremadura
    Distance: 1.0861% / 0.01086072
    Aggregated
    34.8 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    32.0 DEU_MA_ACD
    10.8 Moroccan_North
    9.8 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    8.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    4.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o

    Target: Spanish_Galicia
    Distance: 0.9243% / 0.00924275
    Aggregated
    37.8 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    35.4 DEU_MA_ACD
    10.8 Moroccan_North
    7.6 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    7.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    1.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o

    Target: Spanish_Asturias
    Distance: 2.3181% / 0.02318115
    Aggregated
    54.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    25.2 DEU_MA_ACD
    10.2 Moroccan_North
    10.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o

    Target: Portuguese
    Distance: 0.9591% / 0.00959077
    Aggregated
    43.4 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    30.4 DEU_MA_ACD
    10.2 Moroccan_North
    8.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    6.0 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    2.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

    Target: Spanish_Valencia
    Distance: 0.7645% / 0.00764522
    Aggregated
    48.2 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    30.8 DEU_MA_ACD
    14.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    3.6 Moroccan_North
    3.0 Levant_Canaanite_MBA

    Target: Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
    Distance: 0.7183% / 0.00718252
    Aggregated
    46.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    23.2 DEU_MA_ACD
    16.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    9.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    4.0 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    0.6 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_Soria
    Distance: 1.5913% / 0.01591298
    Aggregated
    48.0 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    35.4 DEU_MA_ACD
    13.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    3.0 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    0.6 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_Pirineu
    Distance: 0.7806% / 0.00780627
    Aggregated
    54.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    26.6 DEU_MA_ACD
    6.8 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    6.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    3.2 Moroccan_North
    2.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o

    Target: Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
    Distance: 0.7490% / 0.00748968
    Aggregated
    39.8 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    35.8 DEU_MA_ACD
    11.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    7.8 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    2.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    2.4 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_Penedes
    Distance: 0.9750% / 0.00975008
    Aggregated
    52.0 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    30.6 DEU_MA_ACD
    8.8 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    5.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    2.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    0.6 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_Pais_Vasco
    Distance: 1.9205% / 0.01920518
    Aggregated
    70.0 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    21.8 DEU_MA_ACD
    8.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    0.2 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_Navarra
    Distance: 1.8570% / 0.01857012
    Aggregated
    48.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    33.0 DEU_MA_ACD
    14.8 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    2.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    1.2 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_Murcia
    Distance: 0.8392% / 0.00839246
    Aggregated
    44.2 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    39.6 DEU_MA_ACD
    8.4 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    7.8 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_Menorca
    Distance: 0.7837% / 0.00783669
    Aggregated
    29.4 DEU_MA_ACD
    29.0 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    23.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    7.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    7.2 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    3.6 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_Mallorca
    Distance: 0.7611% / 0.00761099
    Aggregated
    38.4 DEU_MA_ACD
    25.4 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    20.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    9.0 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    3.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    3.2 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_Lleida
    Distance: 0.8334% / 0.00833408
    Aggregated
    49.8 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    34.2 DEU_MA_ACD
    11.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    4.2 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    0.8 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_La_Rioja
    Distance: 1.1698% / 0.01169846
    Aggregated
    55.0 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    31.6 DEU_MA_ACD
    13.4 Levant_Canaanite_MBA

    Target: Spanish_Girona
    Distance: 0.8613% / 0.00861253
    Aggregated
    36.4 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    36.2 DEU_MA_ACD
    16.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    8.0 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    1.8 Moroccan_North
    0.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o


    Target: Spanish_Eivissa
    Distance: 0.9903% / 0.00990277
    Aggregated
    32.6 DEU_MA_ACD
    30.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    13.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    12.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    8.0 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    3.0 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_Catalunya_Central
    Distance: 0.8011% / 0.00801061
    Aggregated
    40.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    34.6 DEU_MA_ACD
    12.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    6.8 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    5.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o

    Target: Spanish_Cataluna
    Distance: 0.8480% / 0.00848016
    Aggregated
    41.4 DEU_MA_ACD
    41.2 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    12.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    4.6 Moroccan_North


    Target: Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
    Distance: 0.7785% / 0.00778516
    Aggregated
    52.8 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    22.4 DEU_MA_ACD
    14.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    5.6 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    4.4 Moroccan_North
    0.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

    Target: Spanish_Castello
    Distance: 0.7802% / 0.00780165
    Aggregated
    52.0 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    26.2 DEU_MA_ACD
    11.4 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    10.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    0.2 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_Cantabria
    Distance: 1.3941% / 0.01394085
    Aggregated
    49.4 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    20.8 DEU_MA_ACD
    15.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    5.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    4.8 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    3.4 Moroccan_North


    Target: Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
    Distance: 0.6801% / 0.00680067
    Aggregated
    43.8 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    30.0 DEU_MA_ACD
    9.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    9.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    5.4 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    2.4 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_Barcelones
    Distance: 0.9644% / 0.00964399
    Aggregated
    38.0 DEU_MA_ACD
    37.8 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    10.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    9.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    3.6 Moroccan_North

    Target: Spanish_Baleares
    Distance: 1.0120% / 0.01012019
    Aggregated
    32.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    29.8 DEU_MA_ACD
    23.4 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    6.8 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    4.8 Moroccan_North
    2.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o


    Target: Spanish_Aragon
    Distance: 1.1325% / 0.01132540
    Aggregated
    55.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    27.2 DEU_MA_ACD
    6.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    5.0 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    4.4 Moroccan_North
    1.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

    Target: Spanish_Andalucia
    Distance: 1.1079% / 0.01107932
    Aggregated
    49.2 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    18.6 DEU_MA_ACD
    13.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    7.2 Moroccan_North
    6.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    5.2 Levant_Canaanite_MBA

    Target: Spanish_Alacant
    Distance: 1.2881% / 0.01288128
    Aggregated
    50.2 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    27.2 DEU_MA_ACD
    10.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    7.6 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
    5.0 Moroccan_North

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     hartaisarlag (11-17-2019)

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    Your models are lacking the appropriate Neolithic Iberian component. Here they are with the web runner; results may be more accurate when using the manual nMonte with default penalty but I do not have the necessary datasheets at the moment.

    Spanish_Aragon
    0.8106% / 0.00810599
    54.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    40.4 Iberia_N
    5.2 Tunisian

    Spanish_Baleares
    1.3834% / 0.01383392
    53.6 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    38.8 Iberia_N
    7.6 Tunisian

    Spanish_Barcelones
    1.0909% / 0.01090920
    58.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    37.0 Iberia_N
    4.6 Tunisian

    Spanish_Cataluna
    0.8533% / 0.00853347
    57.2 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    35.2 Iberia_N
    7.6 Tunisian

    Spanish_Valencia
    0.9861% / 0.00986103
    55.0 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    36.0 Iberia_N
    7.0 Tunisian

    Spanish_Murcia
    Distance: 1.0732% / 0.01073178
    49.0 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    38.6 Iberia_N
    12.4 Tunisian

    Spanish_Canarias
    1.1718% / 0.01171820
    42.6 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    32.0 Iberia_N
    25.4 Tunisian
    Last edited by LTG; 11-17-2019 at 11:40 PM.

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     hartaisarlag (11-18-2019)

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    I think you should use gaunche11 for anything berber. I also think you should strongly consider using the samples from olalde 2019 rather then the bell beaker iberian. In G25 there are now samples that are likely anything from moriscos to celtiberians. The iberia empuries 2 (greeks from sw turkey) should be included too. Amazingly iberian today show no real impact from Greek settlements since AD as opposed to Italians. I'm still surprised some or someone on this forum suggest some iberian could descend up to 25 percent from Romans.

    Also DEU mac ACD are the samples that had their skulls purposely deformed. They are said to on average be of medieval balkan origin. Do you think they are relevant here? DEU MA on the other hand could be, but in G25 there are apparently a few celtiberians samples available.
    Last edited by Seabass; 11-18-2019 at 12:35 AM.

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     Ruderico (11-18-2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I think you should use gaunche11 for anything berber. I also think you should strongly consider using the samples from olalde 2019 rather then the bell beaker iberian. In G25 there are now samples that are likely anything from moriscos to celtiberians. The iberia empuries 2 (greeks from sw turkey) should be included too. Amazingly iberian today show no real impact from Greek settlements since AD as opposed to Italians. I'm still surprised some or someone on this forum suggest some iberian could descend up to 25 percent from Romans.

    Also DEU mac ACD are the samples that had their skulls purposely deformed. They are said to on average be of medieval balkan origin. Do you think they are relevant here? DEU MA on the other hand could be, but in G25 there are apparently a few celtiberians samples available.
    I didn’t use Guanches because they wouldn’t have absorbed some of the admixture that modern Berbers have that may have made it to Iberia by the Moors. Guanches may represent “pure” Berbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I didn’t use Guanches because they wouldn’t have absorbed some of the admixture that modern Berbers have that may have made it to Iberia by the Moors. Guanches may represent “pure” Berbers.
    For a purely Berber component, you should use "Iberia_Central_CA_Afr" which is a fully North African genome that lived during the Bronze Age.

    Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
    Distance: 3.6471%
    43.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    29.0 MAR_Iberomaurusian
    14.6 Levant_PPNB
    8.8 Dinka
    2.4 WHG
    1.4 Yoruba
    Last edited by Ajeje Brazorf; 11-18-2019 at 08:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    Your models are lacking the appropriate Neolithic Iberian component. Here they are with the web runner; results may be more accurate when using the manual nMonte with default penalty but I do not have the necessary datasheets at the moment.

    Spanish_Aragon
    0.8106% / 0.00810599
    54.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    40.4 Iberia_N
    5.2 Tunisian

    Spanish_Baleares
    1.3834% / 0.01383392
    53.6 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    38.8 Iberia_N
    7.6 Tunisian

    Spanish_Barcelones
    1.0909% / 0.01090920
    58.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    37.0 Iberia_N
    4.6 Tunisian

    Spanish_Cataluna
    0.8533% / 0.00853347
    57.2 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    35.2 Iberia_N
    7.6 Tunisian

    Spanish_Valencia
    0.9861% / 0.00986103
    55.0 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    36.0 Iberia_N
    7.0 Tunisian

    Spanish_Murcia
    Distance: 1.0732% / 0.01073178
    49.0 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    38.6 Iberia_N
    12.4 Tunisian

    Spanish_Canarias
    1.1718% / 0.01171820
    42.6 Bell_Beaker_NLD
    32.0 Iberia_N
    25.4 Tunisian
    if you dont add a east-med or near-east source, the Tunisian skyrockets..

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     Seabass (11-18-2019)

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    What's the point of using early Latins when we have actual Iron Age Iberians? North Moroccans are also not advisable, we have earlier samples (Guanches) eventhough they are trending towards Europe.
    There's a whole thread about this in the Spanish sections, I suggest you go there.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6007"

    Ruderico

    NW_Iberia_IA,80.4
    Berber_EMA,11
    Roman_Colonial,8.6

  12. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    What's the point of using early Latins when we have actual Iron Age Iberians? North Moroccans are also not advisable, we have earlier samples (Guanches) eventhough they are trending towards Europe.
    There's a whole thread about this in the Spanish sections, I suggest you go there.
    Guanches probably shift slightly toward Europe because they have slightly less SSA and Arabian than do continental Berbers... although they do not differ much at all from modern day northern Moroccans.

    Really they might be more purely Berber than the continentals.

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     Bealfire (11-18-2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Guanches probably shift slightly toward Europe because they have slightly less SSA and Arabian than do continental Berbers... although they do not differ much at all from modern day northern Moroccans.

    Really they might be more purely Berber than the continentals.
    No SSA references on the dataset, but:

    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6007"

    Ruderico

    NW_Iberia_IA,80.4
    Berber_EMA,11
    Roman_Colonial,8.6

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     Seabass (11-18-2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweuro View Post
    if you dont add a east-med or near-east source, the Tunisian skyrockets..
    There isn't any significant ancestry from those regions in Spain and Portugal. It's nothing more than low level admixture from Northern Africa as a result of historical movements in both directions leading to shared ancestry. If they had ancestry from the Eastern Mediterranean, which is Greece, Crete, Cyprus and coastal Anatolia, then they would harbor at least some additional components that we see in that region; CHG, for example, but they don't. Greek colonization may have a genetic legacy in some areas of Iberia but it isn't really needed to model these populations.

    Portuguese
    2.1056% / 0.02105609
    51.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    32.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    10.4 WHG
    6.0 MAR_Iberomaurusian

    Spanish_Aragon
    2.8188% / 0.02818790
    53.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    31.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    12.8 WHG
    3.0 MAR_Iberomaurusian

    Spanish_Valencia
    2.2847% / 0.02284703
    52.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    31.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    13.0 WHG
    3.2 MAR_Iberomaurusian

    Spanish_Canarias
    2.3153% / 0.02315297
    51.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    27.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    10.2 MAR_Iberomaurusian
    10.0 WHG
    0.6 ETH_4500BP
    0.6 Yoruba

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