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Thread: Balto-Slavic Z284 & L664

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    Balto-Slavic Z284 & L664

    Is it possible that Z284 is a Balt-Scandinavian hybrid and that L664 is a Slav-German hybrid? In my theory, Kurlanders were Z284 and Wends were L664, that they represented points of contact for literal "dissemination" among North and West Germanic folks, although I accept the possibility of convergence. While it makes sense that East Germany is R1a, especially given Prussia, the fact that Norway on the other side of the mountains would be R1a makes very little sense, seeing as how Sweden is the land with the highest profile on YFull and most intensive record of Balto-Slavic relations, even ruling Poland-Lithuania, but it went back at least to Kurland in AD 650, if not earlier in the 5th century. My theory as to why R1a doesn't predominate in Sweden, is due to that being the naturally well-disposed I1 native region, so R1a would have had to eke out a living by crossing the mountains on unclaimed (poorer) virgin soil in the margins of the I1 population.

    That may be a bit like the more recent example of colonial American Scotch-Irish and Germans moving into Appalachia, while the English and Africans remained on the Atlantic seaboard, but a similar observation was made of Vikings in Northumbria, whereby Norsemen took to the fells above and the Danes took to the dales below. There is also the case of Finnic N pushing into the Baltic and displacing native R1a toward Scandinavia in a domino effect that led to Viking expansions, a bit like earlier times in which the Huns triggered the Völkerwanderung, that not only moved the Goths and Vandals out of their homelands, but the Slavs(, i.e. Wends) took their places. A big reason why N is so pervasive in the Baltic, which, despite Lettlanders being obviously innate R1a carriers, has to do with the Livlanders' Finnic roots alongside Estland, as not even the Balts are entirely Baltic, never mind some Scandinavians actually being Baltic rather than Germanic, or some Germans really Slavs.

    One thing I've noticed, is that R1b is in all of what was the Western Roman Empire and associated lands of Germany and Ireland, so it's not clear that R1b are any more than a West Germanic of nurture--same as R1a North Germanic, because only I1 seems to be from the earliest East Germanics of nature. Most of the East Germanic tribes were from Sweden (Gothi-Scandza: Götaland/Gotland-Skåne) and the chiefly attested tongue, Gothic, is the most conservative. I have noticed that North Germanic simplified the Elder Futhark to a pretty bastardised Younger Futhark, not much different irreverence than the freewheeling approach to pronunciation of Danish, or that English is accused of with respect for traditional rules, so Icelandic is not exactly old-fashioned after all.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4785-Earliest-R-Z284-offshoot-is-Polish
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....andinavian-R1a
    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...p-Latvia/page3
    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post4877206
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/...ped-the-world/
    https://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/...c=11357.0;wap2
    http://www.angelfire.com/va/virdainas/etymology.html
    https://indo-european.info/indo-euro...noscandia-.htm
    https://indo-european.eu/tag/z284/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z284/
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/0...-indo.html?m=1
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/08...mtdna.html?m=1

    This one disagrees, but I'm not sure how Scandinavians would cluster closer to Slavs than to Balts, especially given the intensive relationship that Germans already have with Slavs and not so much with Balts. There are proportional differences in relationships and geography is everything where that's concerned.

    http://molgen.org/eng/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=1135

    It's hard to grasp that I am not a legit Goth/Teuton, but an heir of assimilated forefathers, since I had thought nothing of this until my DNA test. One may wonder what the point is in carrying on in the unnatural basis to this identity, when we might fit in better as Balts and Slavs. The change in perspective is bewildering for one to whom the Cold War pitted the East and West against each other on absolutely existential terms.

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    All right, what I want you to do is never cite Carlos Quiles' "indo-european.eu/info". The man has a bizarre vendetta against some Eastern European neo-Nazi types that lead him to formulate his theory that R1a spoke Uralic languages, that only R1b spread Indo-European languages, that all Indo-European language families that are dominated by R1a are a result of bottlenecks; that Corded Ware was Uralic and only Indo-Europeanized by Eastern Bell Beaker, whose R1b then disappeared over the years and smacks of Western European elitism where they are the bearers of culture to backward Eastern Europeans. What you need to do is not judge history of lines by outliers; take my subclade, YP445. It is predominantly German, and if scientists had first discovered my subclade, they would have announced that M458, a majority Slavic clade, was in origin Germanic. The point is, L664 is Germanic, and while Z284 is probably Pre-Baltic in origin, it is also now Germanic. While I will defend our Slavic cousins against Quiles' propaganda, I will admit that they tend to be rather protective of their R1a subclades and tend to reflexively characterize every M458 clade as Slavic when the last time anyone of my line spoke a non-Germanic language, the Byzantine Empire was a world power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    All right, what I want you to do is never cite Carlos Quiles' "indo-european.eu/info". The man has a bizarre vendetta against some Eastern European neo-Nazi types that lead him to formulate his theory that R1a spoke Uralic languages, that only R1b spread Indo-European languages, that all Indo-European language families that are dominated by R1a are a result of bottlenecks; that Corded Ware was Uralic and only Indo-Europeanized by Eastern Bell Beaker, whose R1b then disappeared over the years and smacks of Western European elitism where they are the bearers of culture to backward Eastern Europeans. What you need to do is not judge history of lines by outliers; take my subclade, YP445. It is predominantly German, and if scientists had first discovered my subclade, they would have announced that M458, a majority Slavic clade, was in origin Germanic. The point is, L664 is Germanic, and while Z284 is probably Pre-Baltic in origin, it is also now Germanic. While I will defend our Slavic cousins against Quiles' propaganda, I will admit that they tend to be rather protective of their R1a subclades and tend to reflexively characterize every M458 clade as Slavic when the last time anyone of my line spoke a non-Germanic language, the Byzantine Empire was a world power.
    I don't believe in the cross-pollination theory of Indo-European and Uralic peoples until the formation of Hungary, Finland and Estonia. I only linked to that site, in common with the others, due to them mentioning Z284 and Baltic origins, which is the point of the thread. I'm not sure why you want to claim that R1a is Germanic, when I1 fits them like none other. R1b is hardly centred on Germania either. Are you saying that Slavs are offshoots of Germans?
    Last edited by Björnsson; 11-19-2019 at 04:45 PM.

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    Interesting topic, R-Z284, is not so old, from my understanding was western Cordedware which from my understanding was rich in R1a Z283, which moved into Jutland and to Scandinavia, possibility part of the Battle axe culture.
    That’s as far as I know, and believe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Interesting topic, R-Z284, is not so old, from my understanding was western Cordedware which from my understanding was rich in R1a Z283, which moved into Jutland and to Scandinavia, possibility part of the Battle axe culture.
    That’s as far as I know, and believe.
    It is my theory that the Gotlander colony of Seeburg, Kurland, at what's now Grobina, Latvia, is the point of origin for Z284. The settlement was founded between 450-650 AD and continuously occupied until the foundation of Russia. Since the Gotland picture stone was unearthed and this is in the general area of Gothic movement from Scandinavia towards Rome, I'd say that the origin of Z284 in Scandinavia is at least as old as the Völkerwanderung and not older. I would place L664 in the same time frame, caused by the disruptions in Wendland. There are several fortifications owing their construction to the uncertainty of not just population vacuum, but apparently population exchange. It's entirely possible that Couronians and Wends were originally thralls and there were uprisings, but I know that Scandinavia continued to face pirate raids from those two lands until the Livonian and Prussian Crusader states were made.

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    I am not saying that that R1a is entirely Germanic, but that it is a part of the genesis of the Germanic peoples. L664 was Western Corded Ware and was incorporated into the early proto-Germanic community, which also incorporated Z284 as it spread into Scandinavia. Also there is a semantic problem between German and Germanic; the modern country incorporates many haplogroups that were not in origin Germanic, but are a part of the modern German people. I think people are too eager to assign particular haplogroups to a people; it should really be in instances only when more than half of the y-lines are a particular haplogroup, like R1b-L21 for the Irish, R1b-DF27 for the Basques, and I2a-Din for Bosnians. It is much more accurate to use geographical nomenclature to describe haplogroups, like I1 is Nordic (there is more of it in western Finland than western Germany), R1a-M458 Central European, and J2b2 Balkan, for instance

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I am not saying that that R1a is entirely Germanic, but that it is a part of the genesis of the Germanic peoples. L664 was Western Corded Ware and was incorporated into the early proto-Germanic community, which also incorporated Z284 as it spread into Scandinavia. Also there is a semantic problem between German and Germanic; the modern country incorporates many haplogroups that were not in origin Germanic, but are a part of the modern German people. I think people are too eager to assign particular haplogroups to a people; it should really be in instances only when more than half of the y-lines are a particular haplogroup, like R1b-L21 for the Irish, R1b-DF27 for the Basques, and I2a-Din for Bosnians. It is much more accurate to use geographical nomenclature to describe haplogroups, like I1 is Nordic (there is more of it in western Finland than western Germany), R1a-M458 Central European, and J2b2 Balkan, for instance
    You dispute the correlation between Slavic admixture in East Germany and respective occurrence of R1a? What say you about the R1b of West Germany, if Germans and Poles supposedly have a closer common origin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Björnsson View Post
    It is my theory that the Gotlander colony of Seeburg, Kurland, at what's now Grobina, Latvia, is the point of origin for Z284. The settlement was founded between 450-650 AD and continuously occupied until the foundation of Russia. Since the Gotland picture stone was unearthed and this is in the general area of Gothic movement from Scandinavia towards Rome, I'd say that the origin of Z284 in Scandinavia is at least as old as the Völkerwanderung and not older. I would place L664 in the same time frame, caused by the disruptions in Wendland. There are several fortifications owing their construction to the uncertainty of not just population vacuum, but apparently population exchange. It's entirely possible that Couronians and Wends were originally thralls and there were uprisings, but I know that Scandinavia continued to face pirate raids from those two lands until the Livonian and Prussian Crusader states were made.
    L664 is found in Bavarian Corded Ware. Z284 is found in Corded Ware and other ancient samples from Scandinavia.

    Neither subclade is Slavic or Baltic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    L664 is found in Bavarian Corded Ware. Z284 is found in Corded Ware and other ancient samples from Scandinavia.

    Neither subclade is Slavic or Baltic.
    If you are saying that the subclades splintered off of R1a before the emergence of metaethnic language groups, I can understand them being grandfathered in Germanic as opposed to Balto-Slavic. On the other hand, blood is blood. This is not much different than Norman French lines making it to the American colonies and never having set foot in Canada. The same fits Huguenots who joined the Dutch in New York. Are they still of French derivation, or do they constitute fundamental parts of the Anglo-Dutch population? With genetic recombination autosomally changing all the time, identity is a constant process of distance plotting, but if the haplogroups themselves are not essential to the formation of ethnic heritage, they are expendable additives. I don't find Z284 and L664 critical elements of Germanic identity, although they might have been important for specific tribes, only they could probably have been tenuously associated with the native Germanic masses and always seen as different. Could Wends be Vandals and both therefore L664 (compare Boii/Bavarian/Bohemian being Celt/German/Slav)? Could Z284 have come from the Baltic?

    Now, Joey is somewhat bringing the WWII identity crisis of German vs Polish identity in Mitteleuropa, to the discussion. This thread is to examine the relationship between Scandinavians and Balts, but with comparative reference being drang nach osten in the ostsiedlung in the völkerwanderung aftermath. There must have existed similar exchanges in lands beyond the Vistula. While some are keen to chalk up differences between Balts and Slavs to Uralic vs Indo-European influences, I see Balt-North German and North Slav-West German. Hell, even Yugoslav-East German might be another parallel. I typically pair Gael-North German and Brython-West German, so Gaul/Galatian-East German could work too. If Finn goes with Balt, North German and Gael, then Samoyed may go with North Slav, West German and Brython. All that's left is to put Magyar with Yugoslav, East German and Gaul/Galatian. Those seem clustering alignments or strata among peoples North of the Alps.
    Last edited by Björnsson; 11-20-2019 at 01:19 AM.

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    Interesting reasoning about agricultural settlements above.

    As to topographical indicators of time of arrival, it is worth being aware of geological factors on soil formation; In Norway, the first settlements seem to be in the middle of the valley slopes where soil was lighter than with the clays at the glacial lake created - flats down below. Easy acess to higher grazing hence saving closer grazinglands during the summer may also have been a factor. As would hunting opportunities.

    In autumn, cold draughts would follow the lowlying parts of the valley, giving higher parts a longer growing season free of frosts. Hence Norwegian settlers abroad may have reasoned that marginally higher land would be better.

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