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Thread: Blame it on the Rain: Paleohydrologic considerations for Shaping African Substructure

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by afbarwaaqo View Post
    How likely would AEA actually originating in the South Sudan/Eastern Ethiopia region be?
    You mean Western Ethiopia right?

    Target: Mother_scaled
    Distance: 5.4903% / 0.05490334
    50.8 Dinka
    35.8 Levant_Natufian
    9.0 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    4.0 ETH_4500BP
    0.4 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: Drobbah_scaled
    Distance: 5.1638% / 0.05163817
    44.8 Dinka
    36.0 Levant_Natufian
    11.6 ETH_4500BP
    6.2 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    1.4 MAR_EN

    Target: Father_scaled
    Distance: 5.5604% / 0.05560439
    48.0 Dinka
    42.0 Levant_Natufian
    8.6 ETH_4500BP
    1.0 MAR_EN
    0.4 Yemenite_Al_Jawf


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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaYamamoto View Post
    Appreciate the response, I have Basoga ancestry but I'll PM you regarding alla that - not sure of the clan but I know the maternal surname so maybe you can help me out. Yeah definitely there's been later expansion 'surges', mostly impacting Nyanza as far as I can tell these secondary un-Malawi like Cameroon/Nigerian stream skipped Tanzania and Central Kenya onwards. I get inferences based on phenotype can be sketchy but I'm glad you see it too, I've noticed in this genomic 'foray' so to speak, intuition plays a key role at least for me - so far most studies either confirm or reject things I've intuitively tried to figure out. I spent time in West Kenya [my step grandfather was Luo], Iganga and obviously Kampala, and noticed a wide array of variation...Jaluo in Kisumu and Migori seem heavily Bantu, but out in Siyaya and Homa Bay you wouldn't be able to distinguish them from Dinka/Nuer and even Mande folks. In Iganga, my Soga relatives were probably the most West-African shifted I'd seen [not Mande tho, more Windward Coast-ish] and only a few folks matched the usual Great Lakes Nillo-shifted Bantu look...all anecdotal I know but theres always a story to tell nah mean.

    Absence of Horner ancestry in myself or Basoga in the few studies I've seen including them also lends to their uniqueness in the region. My grandmother's mother, a Musoga lady, told her that her own maternal ancestry was West-African cuz she claimed the tribe would raid and trade for wives from West Africa...I wrongly assumed she meant by-way of Congo at the least when I was younger, but now things don't seem so clear. Mtdna variation in Uganda as you know is crazy diverse, and I've seen Bantu, West-Central, and West-West variants for the same maternal clade, I'll post up the study/figure later, but I get African American and Dominican matches on 23andme in keeping with that.

    I'm still figuring out the linguistic element too, except for Blench who is basically tha don dada on African linguistics it seem majority of comparative linguists consider Mande a primary branch...I'm thinking the same but Blench makes a good argument...need more samples from Nigeria's South-South though to figure out Ijaw's place in all of this as he considers it to be as early diverged as Mande, but how it made it to the Niger-Delta or survived in isolation...I got no idea. I guess that might be for another thread though, we desperately need more sampling across Africa, particularly Nigeria...tha day Efik/Ibibo/Ekoi/Ejangham samples come out finna be a good day for me.

    edit: tha Senegambian shift in your results is crazy wow.
    Interesting insights! - topics definitely worthy of it's own thread

    To avoid a further tangent I won't comment heavily.
    From other ethnic groups in Uganda, I've heard similar notions of "recent ties" to West-African ethnic groups, notably in Nigeria, I don't believe there's any historical data or hard genetic evidence to back them up -- if you start a separate thread, we can definitely go into this further

    Regarding your diasporic matches, feel free to share your findings on this thread: Echoes of the East-African Slave Trade - Distant Diasporic Matches - IBS or IBD?

    - I'm interested to know more details.




    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar II View Post
    Are you distinguishing AEA from ANA in a purely geographical sense or genetically too?
    Both.

    Based on remains at Jebel Sahaba (bordering Sudan and Egypt) during the afmd dry periods , there seems to have been a clear distinction between a more "Levantine/European/ANA" and a more Tropical-African population (AEA?).


    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar II View Post
    Assuming ANA is not just a statistical abstraction, wouldn't the most parsimonious explanation be that it is basically some variant of an Ancient East African population located in the Upper Nile Valley?
    Not quite.

    We're lacking regional genetic-data from this period but from the skeletal-data it's pretty clear we're dealing with two very distinct populations, each presumably dominant on either spectrum of the Nile-Valley -- it's worth noting, extensive intermediate zones appear to have existed, remains of the more Levantine/European/ANA population have even been found in the middle-nile valley some ~200 miles further south of Jebel Sahaba (modern-day Northern Sudan)

    I mentioned Natufian/"ANA?" with a question-mark since we're not exactly certain on the genetic composition of these late-Pleistocene lower-valley pops. Though IMHO, ANA as we know it (i.e. Iberomaurusian) probably didn't contribute substantially to ancient Northeastern Africans during this period -- a more basal Levantine source would seem to be a more conservative contender



    Quote Originally Posted by afbarwaaqo View Post
    How likely would AEA actually originating in the South Sudan/Eastern Ethiopia region be?
    Not very likely given the general lack of forager-affinities (Mota/KEN_LSA) in nilotic populations like Dinka; groups peaking the highest in AEA-affinities
    .... .. I have spoken."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angoliga View Post
    I mentioned Natufian/"ANA?" with a question-mark since we're not exactly certain on the genetic composition of these late-Pleistocene lower-valley pops. Though IMHO, ANA as we know it (i.e. Iberomaurusian) probably didn't contribute substantially to ancient Northeastern Africans during this period -- a more basal Levantine source would seem to be a more conservative contender
    Why would the source for this population necessarily be in the Levant? You characterize them as being Natufian-like, but given that Natufians likely had substantial ancestry (e.g. "Basal Eurasian") from northeastern Africa, maybe it's more like Natufians are prehistoric Northeast African-like?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angoliga View Post

    Both.

    Based on remains at Jebel Sahaba (bordering Sudan and Egypt) during the afmd dry periods , there seems to have been a clear distinction between a more "Levantine/European/ANA" and a more Tropical-African population (AEA?).


    Not quite.

    We're lacking regional genetic-data from this period but from the skeletal-data it's pretty clear we're dealing with two very distinct populations, each presumably dominant on either spectrum of the Nile-Valley -- it's worth noting, extensive intermediate zones appear to have existed, remains of the more Levantine/European/ANA population have even been found in the middle-nile valley some ~200 miles further south of Jebel Sahaba (modern-day Northern Sudan)

    I mentioned Natufian/"ANA?" with a question-mark since we're not exactly certain on the genetic composition of these late-Pleistocene lower-valley pops. Though IMHO, ANA as we know it (i.e. Iberomaurusian) probably didn't contribute substantially to ancient Northeastern Africans during this period -- a more basal Levantine source would seem to be a more conservative contender
    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't ANA meant to be an African component that admixed with a Eurasian one (modelled with Dzudzuana in Lazaridis pre-print)? In which case using Iberomaurusian as a surrogate for ANA obscures the fact that it's really ANA+Levant/Eurasian? Hence the Levantine/European affinities of "ANA" relative to AEA would be due to the former's admixture with a Eurasian source population.

    In other words, subtract the Levantine source from Taforalt and you're left with a source of ancestry that is most related to tropical AEA, though still distinct in some way.

    Mind you, this is all speculatory barring genetic data from NE Africa as you mention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar II View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't ANA meant to be an African component that admixed with a Eurasian one (modelled with Dzudzuana in Lazaridis pre-print)? In which case using Iberomaurusian as a surrogate for ANA obscures the fact that it's really ANA+Levant/Eurasian? Hence the Levantine/European affinities of "ANA" relative to AEA would be due to the former's admixture with a Eurasian source population.

    In other words, subtract the Levantine source from Taforalt and you're left with a source of ancestry that is most related to tropical AEA, though still distinct in some way.

    Mind you, this is all speculatory barring genetic data from NE Africa as you mention.
    I believe that Lazaridis modeled Taforalt as ANA + Dzudzuana-like (as in Villabruna-like + "Basal Eurasian") ancestry. If I'm reading this graph correctly, ANA is intermediate in "Eurasian" affinity between BE and Mota. So it wouldn't necessarily be SSA-like without the Eurasian admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar II View Post
    In other words, subtract the Levantine source from Taforalt and you're left with a source of ancestry that is most related to tropical AEA, though still distinct in some way.

    Mind you, this is all speculatory barring genetic data from NE Africa as you mention.
    If that is the case, why don't horner populations/Sudanese who are essentially AEA + Levantine show any affinties with Taforarlt compared to Western African groups? It seems ANA doesn't have much to do with NE Africa or the Nile Valley

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  11. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoliga View Post
    Interesting insights! - topics definitely worthy of it's own thread

    To avoid a further tangent I won't comment heavily.
    From other ethnic groups in Uganda, I've heard similar notions of "recent ties" to West-African ethnic groups, notably in Nigeria, I don't believe there's any historical data or hard genetic evidence to back them up -- if you start a separate thread, we can definitely go into this further

    Regarding your diasporic matches, feel free to share your findings on this thread: Echoes of the East-African Slave Trade - Distant Diasporic Matches - IBS or IBD?

    - I'm interested to know more details.
    Yeah I'll definitely start a new thread, I've been trynna research this for a long time so its dope to finally have found someone with so much knowledge on the region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    You mean Western Ethiopia right?
    Yeah my mistake on that error lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    If that is the case, why don't horner populations/Sudanese who are essentially AEA + Levantine show any affinties with Taforarlt compared to Western African groups? It seems ANA doesn't have much to do with NE Africa or the Nile Valley
    You're right. Hence why I say they have to still be distinct in some way. Perhaps through drift or AEA-related groups having more ghost modern/basal human and/or Pygmy-related admixture. I think my priors weigh heavy on E-M35 being related to something ANA-related and therefore geographically bound to NE Africa which I guess unreasonably discounts the possibility of a NW African-originating ANA.

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    It's Very likely that ANA Originated somewhere in Northeast Africa too , Then started spreading around (~30K ybp) or maybe quite more recent or Early .
    However it would have had been already heavily diluted among These proposed Lower Nile Valley inhabitants That were felt in times of Jebel Sahaba (the non tropical group) , Since Current Egyptians and East Africans lacks anything Taforalt_Like ; But Rather Rich in Natufian_Like .
    Last edited by The Saite; 04-06-2020 at 10:45 AM.

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