Origins of M222, DF23, the NW Irish and connections to Niall of the Nine Hostages

[TigerMW]

I don't know where DF49 and DF23 originated and I don't know if M222 is really connected to Niall, ancient Irish King. Its a thought provoking conversation, though.

Here is some new information. One does not a trend make, but here is an interesting new DF23+ test result:

286325 Martin Heil, b.1877, Baranya, Southern Transdanubia, Hungary

I've seen him in the L21 project for some time but was always perplexed. I didn't see any SNP testing until now. My spreadsheets would pick him as a potential DF49* or DF23* type, but every time I would check GD's they'd be so far out that I'd discard his haplotype from the spreadsheet updates.

He's got Geno 2 results now, and sure enough, he is DF23+. I don't see an M222+ so I presume he is M222- but we should look at his raw results to be sure.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp

Hungary is a quite a ways from Ireland but we do have some cases of people traveling quite widely in our historic period. However, I think the other factor is the STR signature. He has a high DYS481 value and DYS413 mutations which are typical in M222 and some parts of DF23. However, the point is that the rest of his STRs scarely match any clusters.

His closest GDs to anyone within L21 are GD=15 @67 which means he broke away from the rest of DF23 a long time ago, perhaps about the time of Caesar.

His closest GD's (15) are:

f286325 Heil R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>S476>DF23 DF23+ L21+ L21+ Z290+ (G2) 49-23*- uas
f96218 Grenon zzL21suspect 49- uas (France)
f95659 Johnston zzL21suspect 49-2329-1922-J
f101298 MacGregor zzL21suspect z43811-10
f36459 McKenzie zzL21suspect 49-23*-1922-C

Grenon is just suspected L21 but he does match some of those signature markers for DF23 types, which is why I included him in the file.

Of course, the Heil surname could relate to German immigration east into Hungary.

[rms2]

DF23, Z2961, and even M222 are known on the Continent, especially France, but, of course, the tendency has always been to dismiss them as the descendants of "Wild Geese" or of Irish monks for whom celibacy was merely a part-time commitment.

Over on that thread about Jean's book, you mentioned her idea that M222 could represent the arrival in the Isles of some continental settlers bearing La Tene culture and skills. Maybe that's right, or it began with DF23.

[TigerMW]

...
Over on that thread about Jean's book, you mentioned her idea that M222 could represent the arrival in the Isles of some continental settlers bearing La Tène culture and skills. Maybe that's right, or it began with DF23.

Here it is. In "Ancestral Journeys...", Jean Manco wrote,

"A more likely genetic signature of La Tene in Ireland is Y-DNA R1b-M222, carried by up to 44 per cent of men in parts of Northern Ireland today.
...
This is not the pattern we would expect from Irish migrants into Britain. So R1b-M222 hints at La Tène movements into Ireland."

I'd have to go back and read through all of that again, but I think the general idea is that M222 came into Ireland from Northern Britain with La Tène. Ironically, that would mean it came in as some kind of P Celtic group that integrated into a Q Celtic based Gaelic (to be) society.

Wasn't Niall supposed to come from the Connachta, which would be westerly in Ireland? The idea of a La Tène immigration seems to be at odds with that. Perhaps I have my Irish stories mixed up.

[Dubhthach]

He should be sponsored for Z2961. After all we know that this is the specific branch of DF23 that M222 sits in, an upgrade to 111 markers would be good as well. I'll just cross-post what I wrote on the L21 mailing list:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [R1b-L21-Project] Heil from Hunary is DF23
To: [email protected]


Heil might be a german surname. There was a fairly large ethnic German population in Hungary and Central Europe in general (Danube Swabians for example). Of course after World War II about 12 million ethnic German's were expelled from Central/Eastern Europe.

I have a feeling this is the same Heil -- 1877 in the post --
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-01/1359216121

-Paul
(DF41+)

That rootsweb message talks about a family folklore of origin in Alsace-Lorraine. So basically the wider Rhineland, there's been some talk before about the general Rhineland/Eastern France as been potential source location for the likes of M222 in the past (or probably more likely DF49/DF23 etc.).

Niall is a "quasi-historical" figure. In general historians do agree that he existed but alot of the stories about him and his sons are verging on the stuff of Saga. My own feeling is that it's a mistake by the likes of FTDNA to identify M222 solely with Niall (pronounced Neil in Irish as not Nile (anglisced) by the way). We see plenty of M222 show up in surnames linked to Connachta (Uí Bhriúin and Uí Fhiachrach "dynasties") who claim descent from his half-brothers, this would point to me that M222 is specifically a marker connected to wider Dál gCuinn (Dál Cuinn in old Irish).

The word Dál is sometimes translated as meaning "Share of" eg. "Share of ancestor", Dál Cuinn = Share of Conn, though in eDIL it's down more as sept/branch/division/"land held by tribe", so for example: (Screenshot I took to preserve formatting)



Conn is probably mythical, some have argued that he's potentially a humanised deity, the pseudo-history syncrhonise his reign with that of Marcus Aurelius (mid 2nd century). His supposed grandfather is Túathal Techtmar, whose saga talks about a rebellion of the Province Kings overthrown his father, and that his pregnant mother (Daughter of the King of Alba -- Scotland, but in this case probably meaning Britain/Albion) fled back to her father. Túathal Techtmar then returned as a grown man from Britain to reclaim his rightful throne. This was during the 1st century by the way supposedly.

This saga if you ask me preserves a hint of movement/contact between Northern Britain and Ireland.

What's interesting with Chromo2 tests on M222 is that the more upstream branches seem more Scottish/Northern English (modern boundaries)

-Paul
(DF41+)

[Dubhthach]

Here it is. In "Ancestral Journeys...", Jean Manco wrote,

"A more likely genetic signature of La Tene in Ireland is Y-DNA R1b-M222, carried by up to 44 per cent of men in parts of Northern Ireland today.
...
This is not the pattern we would expect from Irish migrants into Britain. So R1b-M222 hints at La Tene movements into Ireland."

I'd have to go back and read through all of that again, but I think the general idea is that M222 came into Ireland from Northern Britain with La Tene. Ironically, that would mean it came in as some kind of P Celtic group that integrated into a Q Celtic based Gaelic (to be) society.

Wasn't Niall supposed to come from the Connachta, which would be westerly in Ireland? The idea of a La Tene immigration seems to be at odds with that. Perhaps I have my Irish stories mixed up.

Mike,

It's worth pointing out that the Q/P differentiation in Insular Celtic at this stage would have been quite minor. Probably on order of difference between modern Scandinavian languages -- or a push between Dutch and German. It wouldn't be too hard to switch, these were closely related languages after all.

It's worth pointing out that the name of province of Connacht derives from fact that it was conquered by the Connachta. Even to this day people from province of Connacht are called "Connachta" in Irish language (been from Galway I'd qualify), in this case though it's geographic term as oppose to dynastical/tribal.

Before that it was called "Cóiced Ol nEchmacht" (Cóiced = Cúige eg. 1/5th eg. Province), the "Ol nEchmacht" coming from the tribal name of "Fír Ol nEchmacht" (Fír = men of)

Jean talks about La Tene movement, but alot of La Tene items are more specific into North-East Ulster (Ulaid) and date from 200BC onwards, perhaps with "Connachta" we are seeing movement more around the time of the Roman invasion of Britain perhaps tied to likes of Brigantes etc. (purely my own suggestion)

-Paul
(DF41+)

[Dubhthach]

A fairly accessible "intro" can be found in this section on a book about Brian Boru:

http://books.google.ie/books?id=PH5w...page&q&f=false

[jdean]

His closest match (4 off at 37 loci) is to a fellow called Hiles who's MDKA was a Heil from Frankfurt born 1710.

However his MDKA was born not 1/2 a mile from a place called Hilley in Hungary, anybody know enough about Hungarian names to know if this could be the source of his surname ?

[TigerMW]

Good catch.

Must be this this guy, right?
17635 Hiles John (Johan) Heil, abt 1710, Frankfurt, Germany

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

I see 17635 Hiles is 385=12,14 rather than 13,14 for 286325 Heil. Both are unusual but this suggests the mutation to 13 might be a second, later mutation and a red herring in the ancestral description of this group. 12,14 might be a better signature to search for for.

There is also this guy in the Hiles project who is 385=12,14.
46432 Hiles, b. Unknown Origin

So is this guy, but his 464 values are different so we have to be careful about these shorter haplotypes.
246586 Skiles, b. Unknown Origin

[rossa]

What's interesting with Chromo2 tests on M222 is that the more upstream branches seem more Scottish/Northern English (modern boundaries)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Is it too early to tell if there are many examples of Irish people (with an assumed long standing Irish male lineage) who have these upstream snp's?

Sorry to go off topic (I couldn't find the thread on Worldfamiles forum) but what's the story with M222 and the O'Neill surname? From what I understand it doesn't turn up as much as you'd expect and it's possibly down to them getting almost wiped out after being kicked out of Aileach in Inishown.

[Dubhthach]

Is it too early to tell if there are many examples of Irish people (with an assumed long standing Irish male lineage) who have these upstream snp's?

Sorry to go off topic (I couldn't find the thread on Worldfamiles forum) but what's the story with M222 and the O'Neill surname? From what I understand it doesn't turn up as much as you'd expect and it's possibly down to them getting almost wiped out after being kicked out of Aileach in Inishown.

Check out the article from Jogg (co-authored by the late John McLaughlin)
http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf

It looks like the "O'Neill Variety" they describe is actually DF27+ (Z196-).

A basic glossary for those not familiar with early medieval Irish history:

• Uí = plural eg. grandsons/descendants
• Ua = singular eg. grandson/descendant, in modern Irish: Ó
• Uí Néill = dynastical term for "descendants" of Niall Noígiallach (Niall of Nine Hostages)
• Northern Uí Néill = Kingdom of Aileach (In Tuasiceart = The North), divided into three "Kindreds"
• Southern Uí Néill = Midhe (Mí) eg. Meath -- divided into two "Kindreds"
• Ua Néill/Ó Néill = surname, descendants of Niall Glúndub (Niall of the Black Knee) HighKing of Ireland 916-919AD, member of "Northern Uí Néill" dynasty

Within the concept of the Highkingship (Ard Rí) it rotated between "Dynastical branches" eg. Northern -> Southern -> Northern. Niall Glúndubh (member of Cinéal nEoghain of Northern Uí Néill) was succeded by Donnchadh Donn mac Flainn (King of Meath, member of Clann Cholmáin of Southern Uí Néill) etc. etc.

In case of the O'Neill family (Ua/Ó Néill) they were dispossed of Kingship of Aileach (and thus Cineal nEoghain) for over a century by their kinsmen the MacLochlainn (McLoughlin). It's possible that a NPE thus occurred in lineage, there's been some debate in academia that the lineage of the Ua/Ó Néill family is suspect during this period (mid/late 11th-12th centuries)

-Paul
(DF41+)