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Thread: Origins of M222, DF23, the NW Irish and connections to Niall of the Nine Hostages

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I'm sure there are some folks from the Isles that have traveled into Germany during the historic period, but how do we explain a DF23* person who doesn't fit any Isles clusters?
    Mike,

    I'm sure there are some folks from the Isles that traveled into Europe prior to the historic period.. Cunliffe has demonstrated this clearly in Britain Begins. I will look closer at the DF23* case. Do you have his id. I hope our imminent Tsunami of SNPs will clarify a lot of these cases.

    Edit: I looked at your list above. Are you referring to Heil. I would guess this is a version of Heiland (Hyland) AKA Whalen. Most of these names appear to be HyMany or Connachta and likely to be DF49. In any event they are DF13, the majority appear to be Gaelic.
    Last edited by Heber; 01-21-2014 at 09:06 PM.
    Gerard Corcoran
    R1b-DF21-S5456-S6166, H1C1

  2. #22
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    Incidentally, do any of you know what the situation is regarding legals rights to extracting DNA samples from ancient burial sites? Presumably a skeleton dug up during an archaeological excavation is OK, but I guess on Iona the site still counts as an established burial ground..?

  3. #23
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    Given the Acidic nature of soils in Iona and general area you probably wouldn't even find Skeletons let alone ancient-DNA. Just the same way as the body wasn't found in Sutton Hoo, it had been gradually eaten away by the acidic sandy soil

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Given the Acidic nature of soils in Iona and general area you probably wouldn't even find Skeletons let alone ancient-DNA. Just the same way as the body wasn't found in Sutton Hoo, it had been gradually eaten away by the acidic sandy soil

    -Paul
    (DF41+)
    Paul,

    Hopefully they were buried in stone graves with cap stones and better preserved.

    http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/macalpin_3.htm

    "The Abbey was to become the mausoleum of the early Celtic Kings of Scotland who wished to be buried near to St. Columba. Their burial ground, known as Reilig Odhrain and dedicated to St. Oran, lies to the south-west of the priory at Iona. An inventory of 1549 recorded 48 Scottish, 8 Norwegian and 4 Irish kings buried there. The inscriptions are said to have worn away by the end of the seventeenth century."

    If we can excavate the bones of Richard III and lay him to rest again with dignity in a Cathedral surely we should be able to do that for the Kings of Scotland, Ireland and Norway.
    Last edited by Heber; 01-21-2014 at 09:25 PM.
    Gerard Corcoran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heber View Post
    Mike,

    I'm sure there are some folks from the Isles that traveled into Europe prior to the historic period.. Cunliffe has demonstrated this clearly in Britain Begins. I will look closer at the DF23* case. Do you have his id. I hope our imminent Tsunami of SNPs will clarify a lot of these cases.
    I agree. There were probably prehistoric migrations in both directions (to and from the Isles) so anything is possible. I think the larger population movements prehistorically and even up through the Roman Era were from the continent to the Isles though. I find the Wessex culture trading links to the Middle Rhine and Unetice folks quite interesting, although that may have been before DF23's time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heber View Post
    Edit: I looked at your list above. Are you referring to Heil. I would guess this is a version of Heiland (Hyland) AKA Whalen. Most of these names appear to be HyMany or Connachta and likely to be DF49. In any event they are DF13, the majority appear to be Gaelic.
    Yes, Heil. I think you are saying the surnames appear to be Gaelic?

    This becomes difficult to ascertain based on surname. Ancestry.com claims it has a German origin.
    "German: from a pet form of Heinrich.Dutch and North German: from a short form of the Germanic female personal name Heila, derived from hail ‘whole’"
    http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=heil
    Last edited by Mikewww; 01-22-2014 at 12:36 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Yes, Heil. I think you are saying the surnames appear to be Gaelic? ... so then Heil is a derivative of a Gaelic name or word?

    This becomes difficult to ascertain based on surname. Ancestry.com claims it has a German origin.
    "German: from a pet form of Heinrich.Dutch and North German: from a short form of the Germanic female personal name Heila, derived from hail ‘whole’"
    http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=heil
    Mike,

    Germany L21 Surname Analysis.jpg

    Heiland is one of the few German L21 results so it is possibly related to that. We cannot be sure until we have get better SNP resolution.
    Gerard Corcoran
    R1b-DF21-S5456-S6166, H1C1

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    Don't want to overly complicate matters, but I've heard Heil in a religious context, from the German 'heilig' meaning holy. The surname Heilig also in fact exists, and is supposed to refer to one who was associated with a religious order, in much the same way as MacMillan (angl. of 'son of the tonsured one') in Scotland. Could be pure and utter coincidence, and indeed probably is. But the possibility is intriguing...

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Jon For This Useful Post:

     Heber (01-21-2014)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    in much the same way as MacMillan (angl. of 'son of the tonsured one') in Scotland.
    That's a too literal translation, it would be akin to saying that somone called Peterson was "Son of the Rock".

    Mac MAOLÁIN—IV—M'Mowllane, M'Moylan, MacMullan, MacMullen, MacMullin, MacMullon, MacMillan, MacMillen, MacBlain, Mullin, Mullins, &c.; 'son of Maolán' (diminutive of maol, bald). In the 12th century, Mac Maoláin was lord of Gaileang Breagh, in the north of the present Co. Dublin, but in later ages the name has been confined to North-East Ulster. There is also a Scottish Mac Maoláin.
    In reality the name means "son of a man called Maolán". Direct translation would be "little baldy", just way "Paul" is derived from latin adjective for "small"/"few" -- I'm hardly small so I don't think we can take it for granted that Maolán was either "small and bald" or tonsured!

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

  10. #29
    Did La Tene leave any genetic influence in Turkey and the Balkans? I know it was supposed to have had a significant cultural impact n that area.

  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Over on that thread about Jean's book, you mentioned her idea that M222 could represent the arrival in the Isles of some continental settlers bearing La Tene culture and skills. Maybe that's right, or it began with DF23.
    Batar trí prímcheinéla i nHére, .i. Féini 7 Ulaith 7 Gáilni .i. Laigin.
    "There were three principal kinships in Ireland: the Féini, the Ulaidh, and the Gáilni, i.e., the Laighin."
    -- From an Eighth Century legal tract.

    All of the La Tène artifacts unearthed in Ireland have been found in the northern part. The metal finds are generally made from bronze, but in the La Tène style. Other finds are the La Tène Beehive querns found in the same general areas, but not in the exact locations. The metal objects are found in the good land and the querns are found in the poorer land. It is believed that this indicates a class distinction and indicates a population change beyond just mounted warriors.

    The three principle tribes in this area were the Connachta(Féini), Ulaidh, and the Laighin and it was about these peoples that the Ulster Cycle and in particular, the Táin Bó Cúailnge were composed.

    Pronunciations:
    Ulaidh = Uly; Tir Ulaidh => Ulster
    Laighin = Layin; Tir Laighin => Leinster
    Emhain Macha = Avan Macha
    Cruachain = Cruacin
    Táin Bó Cúailnge = Tawn Bo Cooley; Cattle driving of Cooley - Cooley is a peninsula in County Louth.

    IronAgeIreland.jpg

    Work has been done in the last few decades by archaeologists who have identified two clear horizons which unite the Connachta, Ulaidh, and the Laighin by way of what are called their Royal Sites which are identified in the Táin.

    These are the 'Royal Sites' of the Táin Bó Cúailnge which have been identified and studied. Emhain is the best studied and Cruachain the worst, but that is improving.
    Knockaulin - Dún Ailinne of the Laighin
    Tara - the most important
    Navan Fort - Emhain Macha of the Ulaidh
    Rathcroghan - Cruachain of the Connachta



    Horizons (summarized):
    4th century BCE - late second BCE: A series of figure-of-eight structures are built in Emhain, Dún Ailinne and Tara. (Cruachain has the top half, i.e. the large circle and the east facing walls). They have no parallel anywhere in Europe.
    1st century BCE (95 BCE at Emhain by dendrochronology): The figure-of-eight structures are removed and a "40 meter structure" is built at all 4 sites. They have no parallel anywhere in Europe.

    It seems that the archaeology reveals a direct prehistoric datable connection among the Connachta, Ulaidh, and the Laighin which parallels the stories of the Ulster Cycle. This may mean something about the spread of La Tène and possibly M222.

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